Dr. Janice Jackson | Aspen Institute - Transcript

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Jeremy Singer: I'm Jeremy Singer, president of the College Board, and this is the Education Equation. I've spent my career grappling with what truly drives student success. On this podcast, I'll talk with people who are researching, building and scaling solutions that matter. Every episode will go beyond the hype and focus on data and evidence to see what's actually working.

Let's stop guessing and let's figure out what works. Dr. Janice Jackson is a nationally recognized education leader and former CEO of Chicago Public Schools. A CPS graduate herself. She spent more than 20 years in the district as a teacher, principal, and system leader.

Before serving A CEO from 2017 through 2021, she then founded Hope Chicago, where she [00:01:00] launched and scaled a two generation debt-free scholarship model showing strong evidence of impact. Today she serves as executive director of the Aspen Institute's Education and Society program. At Aspen, she's bringing together a coalition of Education leaders, community voices, and policymakers to explore the future of student experience and outcomes.

Dr. Jackson, welcome to the Education Equation. 

Dr. Janice Jackson: Thanks for having me, Jeremy. 

Jeremy Singer: So I'm a bit intimidated talking to such a Chicago legend.  I have a modicum of credibility. I was born in Hyde Park.  

Dr. Janice Jackson: yeah, that's a lot. Yeah.  

Jeremy Singer: unfortunately my parents, are fortunately, I dunno, moved to New York before I started school though.

My, siblings unfortunately 

Dr. Janice Jackson: for you, but that's okay. No, I'm just joking. It 

Jeremy Singer: was a while ago.  but I still have a ton of friends and family,  there. And, rarely are they universal about anything, but they were universal about praising the work you did and your leadership. So I want to just start with a thanks for all you've done for the [00:02:00] students and families, throughout your career.

Dr. Janice Jackson: I appreciate that and, I accept the, gratitude, but it was really easy work to do given my background in the city and to be honest, everything that the city has done for me. 

Jeremy Singer: That's great. Yeah. So you're a CPS alumna who later led the entire district, more than 300,000 students, more than 600 schools.

I think it's the fourth largest, school district in the us. So when you were a student?  I think way back,  yeah. Did you think about becoming a superintendent and if so, at what age? 

Dr. Janice Jackson: No. It's so funny. I was just joking with my husband about this.  I, wasn't a weird kid running around saying, I wanna be a superintendent.

I think, I don't even know that I knew what a superintendent was at that time.  I guess nowadays with social media and so many other things, people are much more aware of who's in charge in, the leaders. But what I do remember is early on,  just paying a lot of attention to local politics, which if you're from Chicago, it's hard to ignore [00:03:00] them.

 but I grew up in a family where my dad followed politics closely. So a lot of the things that I talk about now as it relates to Chicago, school reform. Not only did I live through it, but I did, I was a close observer just because it was so interconnected with the, local politics. I will say that I did foreshadow this role early in my career.

I originally went to college to be a university professor. I love history and my father was like, that's great, but you need to work while you go and get your doctorate degree or whatever fancy stuff you wanna do. And I started teaching,  at one of,  Chicago public schools, high schools on the southeast side, south Shore.

And it was then,  that I made a determination that I was gonna change course. And on my graduate school application, I did in fact write that I wanted to be the superintendent of Chicago public schools by the time that I was 40. And that's exactly what happened.  and I did that because. It was the first time, and I'm a little embarrassed to say that I saw the [00:04:00] two-tiered system, of CPS.

I saw what the students at my school were receiving compared to what me and my siblings received going to choice in selective high schools across the city, and I wanted to do something about it. 

Jeremy Singer: That's, a great story. And, I was hoping I, you were in seventh grade and you were like, I can do that better.

most seventh graders. No.  but it's still a wonderful story without that.  it's also lovely to hear, how much that your parents and your, father guided you. I,   I'm, much older than you. but in the, late sixties, early seventies, my dad was also very involved in, Chicago politics and, some of my first memories are, we had this big, he went to University of Chicago and we had this big library table that they were throwing out that he took at home, he was helping with the redistricting and the maps, and so I have these members of that. So that was a 

Dr. Janice Jackson: volatile time with the.

Segregation and the Willis wagons as they called them, those named after the superintendent. So that was a really volatile time. 

Jeremy Singer: Yeah. And he was close to Abner Mikvah, who did a lot of great work back 

Dr. Janice Jackson: in the time. Oh my. So 

Dr. Janice Jackson: I [00:05:00] actually, when I talk later about the work I'm doing at,  Aspen,  Abner Mikvah and his work comes up a lot and it really Oh, great.

Inspire me, especially the, role of youth engagement.  

Jeremy Singer: Yeah. I love that.  that's a nice, serendipity. as I did the research, I couldn't imagine someone better suited as, I said, you, were a student, a teacher, a principal, a system leader.

parent of a CPS student.  and I've heard you in the past talk that of all that experience being a principal provided the best preparation for the superintendent job. can you share with our listeners why that was? 

Dr. Janice Jackson: Yeah, as you pointed out, I've served or been a participant in almost every role you can think of in the, CPS educational system.

I often say too, that being a principal is the best job that I've ever had, and that is still very much the case. And I think it's because it's a unique position where you're right at the nexus and. you're informing and implementing policy, but you're also close to students and families in a way that, the more you [00:06:00] ascend throughout the ranks, you get away from that.

And so I love that role from a more strategic standpoint, I can't think of a better point of leverage for,  Large district,  change then the role of the principal. If you think about CPS,  at the time that I was leading, we had about 350,000 students,  over 25,000 teachers and about 666. And I know that number exactly because we calculated it,  precisely 65, I should say,  principals.

And our thinking is we could develop, first of all, we could identify, which is that first  layer on the, human capacity continuum. First, identify the right people for the right schools and work in tandem with our local school councils, which is a unique structure in Chicago that was born out of the reform in the eighties, where parents, teachers, and community members actually select and retain and hire the

Local leaders of their schools. So as a district, we had to work intentionally and collaboratively with them [00:07:00] to make sure they were selecting from a high quality pool of candidates. So we created,  a principal eligibility process to make sure that the folks who were in that pool were ready to lead schools.

So that was step one. But the next step, which is what I think really positions CPS as a unique district, is the amount of work that went into developing the capacity of leaders while they were in that role and across different phases of their career. Some people will handle principal development, but we have a very, specific and sophisticated way of thinking about that whether you are a two year principal or a person who's been doing this for 10 years and looking for that second wind,  we spend a lot of time developing their capacity, identifying challenges, removing those who are not doing well, so that we can get the outcomes that our kids deserve. 

Jeremy Singer: Yeah.

 I'll say a couple things. first of all, talking to a lot of superintendents in my job who were principals, I think most would've preferred principals. 'cause there's [00:08:00] one, to your point, you're closer to students, yeah. Two, the politics are not as difficult as they are today.

I think superintendent is, one of the hardest jobs if the hardest job in education right now. Yeah.  Or 

Dr. Janice Jackson: university president. Yeah. I was gonna say, that was, 

Jeremy Singer: in my head. Yes.  you, nailed it.  I also wanna point out to our listeners that the, way that the role of the community, has in determining staff and so forth in Chicago decisions is unique.

it's, I love how you took what for many, could be like a burden and you tried to make it as, best you can. So thank you for that. Yeah. So back to the principal point.  I've read and seen you made a priority about,  staffing continuity. And at one point, there's data that only, 25%, so one in four principals left every year.

Yeah.  by the end of your tenure, the retention rate was 91%. yeah. Was it the training, like how did you support principals to get such a change? 

Dr. Janice Jackson: Yeah, there are a couple things.  Tony Bright writes about Chicago Reform over three eras, and one of the things that he really [00:09:00] highlights is the unique,  ecosystem of both public and private partnerships that work together in Chicago.

And it is really unlike anything I've ever seen in any other district. And like you, I talk to a lot of folks across the country and people may have bits and pieces of it, but for better or worse. In Chicago, people feel a responsibility to be a part of moving the school system forward. And so we have a partnership with an organization called the Chicago Public Education Fund, which is a separate 5 0 1 C3 they were established to support principal leadership.

 so that. Is one piece. We also partner with local universities to, support our principals, whether that be University of Illinois at Chicago, which is a program I graduated from who produces, the largest,percentage of principals for our schools, which is amazing. And they have a very specific way they train them so we know what we're getting.

Or Northwestern, who does executive training for our top leaders to really help them take their leadership to [00:10:00] the next level. And so what you have in Chicago is Everybody coming together to support them in that work. I would add the other piece is the use of,  data and,  reporting to really track progress and so very transparent around,  progress and performance.

a lot of transparency around.  people who are doing well, so we can learn from them, but also places where there may be challenges. And so the way that data would be shared with the school system, it would allow principal, supervisors, the superintendent, et cetera, to intervene appropriately and switch out people if that needed to happen.

Or, put them on performance plans or whatever you need to do in order to help people to improve. But I would say there's this culture around  progress and people know that there's a lot of transparency around what you're doing. And so I think that has led to, the outcomes. And then the last thing is principal empowerment, which we don't spend enough time talking about. CPS principals, [00:11:00] enjoy I would say some of that has been limited now,  under the newer, kind of administration and the way things are going. But we gave them a lot of freedom and autonomy. And I remember leading, as a principal, I served as a principal for 11 years and having that freedom and autonomy really allowed me to try things, but also knowing that you can try it, but here are the outcomes that you're expected to meet.

And if you are successful, you will be praised. And if you're not, there will be consequences. And I think that is the approach we need in our school system to make sure our kids get the education that they deserve.  

Jeremy Singer: it's interesting,  CPS is unique that public,  private partnership, the integration with the universities, it feels very Midwestern in a good way.

  let me go into one piece. So back in the late nineties, I did work with New York City schools, and at the time they had 32 community school districts, and they faced it's a bigger system, Even more principals, but they really struggled with, even when they could identify a poor performing principal, it [00:12:00] was.

Very hard to do anything with them they ended up moving them between the 32 community school districts. what was your ability in Chicago, you, talk about the data I'm sure some didn't perform. Yeah. what, could you. I

Dr. Janice Jackson: think we had, some stronger systems set up first on the front end.

I talked about that principal eligibility pool. I remember what it was like prior to that where, you could go and get the certification and you're qualified to be a principal. A local school council could select you and, I'm sure back then, this was maybe in the, nineties, people in charge would have to deal with that.

 later I think in the late nineties, early two thousands,  when Arne Duncan came in as the CEO superintendent of the district, he put the eligibility process in place. And that just really narrowed the pool. We had competencies that people had to meet, not just sit in a class and get a certificate.

Yeah. And so I think that changed a lot and it,  professionalized in my [00:13:00] opinion, the role of the principal, which I think was also important. On the back end. I think the local school councils that I talked about earlier, that structure really helped us because they had the power to both select, which sometimes was a challenge.

'cause there were times where the local school council wanted somebody that maybe the district didn't agree with. Those were always interesting.  but when the local school council made a decision to move a principal, it was backed up by state law. So we didn't have some of the challenges that you described.

And, my personal view is that in education, we can't afford to  Have more protections in place for adults than we do our children. Yeah. Their futures depend on having highly qualified leaders and teachers and people, district leaders, et cetera, in front of them working on their behalf. And I'm just of the mindset that you have to create the systems to support the people who do the work well, because it's hard and you equally have to have systems to remove them when things don't work out.

Jeremy Singer: That's well said.   I wanna ask a few more things on [00:14:00] your,  CPS tenure 'cause it was, so impressive. Then, we'll go to Hope Chicago, and then I wanna leave some time for Aspen as well. there's, a long list of impressive,  data about the impact that you had in your tenure.

 one that stood out to me was, the change in graduation rates. So if you go back, well before you, you started, you were principal at the time, but not, superintendent. CPS graduation rate in 2010 was 55.8%, and then in your leadership in 2020, that reached 82.5%. So that's an enormous. Turnaround. Yeah.

 you've talked already about a number of things you did, but anything else you wanna highlight for listeners or other superintendents about Yeah. What were the things that got such a, an amazing result? 

Dr. Janice Jackson: I think I go back to that,  First notion I said about how everybody works together in our district.

It started,  quite honestly with our mayor at the time, mayor Emmanuel, putting a stake in the ground and saying that this  graduation rate is unacceptable and that we're gonna do everything within our power to change that. [00:15:00] It's also important to note, 'cause I always like to point this out, we did this without a huge demographic shift. Because people always wanna explain it away by saying, oh, they must have fewer poor kids, or fewer black kids, or some other explanation. And we also did this while strengthening and making it, quite frankly more difficult to graduate. We increased the number of hours students needed to graduate.

We changed the sequencing,  making sure kids took lab sciences. We also made it where they had to do things like take,  the ACT or SAT a college entrance exam to graduate, complete a post-secondary plan. It is important to know that it wasn't just about chasing a number. We also wanted to make sure that were better prepared for post-secondary.

I would also argue that,  it went back to that relationship we had with the University of Chicago. Specifically,  the Consortium on School Research, Chicago, again, is unique in that this institution, you, Chicago has unfettered access to CPS data and they have [00:16:00] for over 35 years. This is unheard of.

And when I talked to other superintendents, they're like, are you guys crazy? And we're like, no. They actually have produced data and research that informed our practice and policies, things that we would not have thought of. And so the one that I think directly correlates to our graduation rate is freshmen on track.

I was a principal when freshmen on track. When that research first came out from  Dr. Melissa Roderick, who first uncovered the fact that if students were on track and had a certain amount of credits, by the time they finished ninth grade, they were three times more likely to graduate in four years.

As a principal, that felt doable. That felt like that was within my sphere of influence to change. So we started setting up early warning systems, identifying students who are off track sooner, putting in the right interventions. That was one piece. And then the district actually listened to the researchers, which does not always happen.

 the researchers out there know this, the district leaders out there know this, [00:17:00] but when researchers. Can reach the leaders and the practitioners and vice versa. You get something that,  can be transformational. And what happened is Arne Duncan, who was the CEO at the time, actually made freshmen on track a part of our performance policy.

So I knew as a principal I didn't have four years to prove whether or not, I did what I needed to do for this cohort of students. It was tracked annually. And I think seeing those, leading indicators early. That tracking them early, really, reformed or reoriented how we thought about the work.

And so that work is complex. I will say what I'm most proud of is that it wasn't a blip. If you look at our performance over time, steady increases. So it wasn't like. A magic bullet. Yeah, it was an outlier one year. Yeah. It was real intentional work and so much it's informed districts across the nation, but I can also say it's really entrenched in what we do in CPS. CPS If you go in, there are very few things people agree on. [00:18:00] People know that freshmen on track matters because they know that it is highly correlated with graduation outcomes.  

Jeremy Singer: yeah, no, that,

sounds excellent and, it's, a tribute to you and the team. At, CPS, that one, as you said, you're open to a third party, Yeah.  looking at the data, it's do you really want someone in that? Not, defensive, but two, there's a level,  with your leadership and Arne and others of  Data, facility  yeah. That, allowed you to take advantage of that and build programs.

A lot, to be learned here.  

Dr. Janice Jackson: I'll never forget driving into work one day.  and this goes back to The university having access to our data and then like publishing those results and they work closely with the district.

But I'll never forget driving into work, and this was, you can tell how long ago this was because the guy was still standing on the street selling newspapers and he, usually I would get my paper when I got to work and he held up the newspaper and there was a big headline that basically said.

 8% of CPS students,  graduate from college. And [00:19:00] for black students, black males, that number was like 3%. Every time I think about this, I remember exactly what it felt like, the pit I had in my stomach as I was like leading. Of course. Yeah. I wanted to a school to do this work and I will tell you.

That, that system, that data was shocking, but it created, the two and through work that University of Chicago does in conjunction with the district. And it's another example where when that data was published about 20 years ago, it was 8%. That number is over 30% now. And again, it's not, the, national average is about 38, or little under 40%.

So we're closing in on that national average, but. Imagine going from single digits to closing in on the national average. It happened because of the data transparency, but it also happened because the district rallied around that and put the systems in place to see the changes occur. And so that is really, Chicago isn't perfect, but I do tell people we aren't afraid to try things because we've seen [00:20:00] success and we've seen the, consistent improvement over time.

And I think that's what it takes to scale change in a large district. 

Jeremy Singer: I love it. And you hit so many key points that resonate with me. I'll just say, as a leader at the college board. I'm often in arguments with people like, you shouldn't have SAT, it's unfair and it points to different groups.

Subgroups perform less well, and I'm pointing out yes. There is systemic inequality in our system. Yeah. And these point that out. The exam is not the issue that we need to fix. And if we get rid of the way to measure systemic inequality by showing it.

We're not, things aren't gonna get better. They likely will get worse. So I love That's the same argument. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I also will say, for, listeners, there's a lot of research, not by college board a CT, but by universities and others that.  administering what you did, administering the SAT or ACT in school, You reach more students, you reach a lot of students that wouldn't have shown up wouldn't have registered and shown up to take it on a Saturday. And some portion of those students who wouldn't have thought they [00:21:00] were college ready suddenly realize that. Yeah.  and go. And then there's all the research that they not only go but they matriculate they first year.

Yep. First year success, four success, et cetera. It's interesting 'cause from college board when I started, less than 10% of SAT takers, took it in school.  more than 90% a weekend, and now two thirds take it in school. So it's one of the things we're proudest of.

Dr. Janice Jackson: Yeah. I will say, I always tell people, again, a lot of my, decision making goes back to my personal experiences. And I remember sitting in study hall in the nineties in CPS back when we could afford study hall. Those days are over. Yeah,  but there were about 150 kids sitting in a study hall, and I'll never forget the counselor.

A, which again, once again, we could afford counselor's aids back then came in and handed out. The ACT packet to about half of the class. And I remember, I received it. Somebody somewhere made a decision that I was college ready and and I was going, my parents were promoting that. But I think it speaks to, again, the systemic structures that we have to break down.[00:22:00] 

if you still have a system where a small group of people are making decisions about students' lives.  I would say that's a system that needs to be blown up and disrupted.  there are so many students who just don't know, and when they get exposed or get access, their life has changed. And I remember when Mayor Emmanuel and I were implementing,  learn Plan Succeed, which was every kid is gonna have a college, post-secondary plan in order to graduate.

A reporter asked, I won't say who. Maybe you can go back and find it. They asked, they said, why are you all pushing middle class values on the students in CPS? 'cause there were a lot of questions if this would impact graduation rates. I had to go look that up 'cause I didn't know what she meant by middle class values.

I did not know what that meant. And I answered the question, I thought I did a good job, but I was even more infuriated after I really understood the, basis of that question. And in short, it was challenging a school district for trying to create the same advantages. And information and access [00:23:00] that middle class and upper middle class and affluent students get by virtue of existing, and school districts can do that.

Now. We can't do everything, but there are a lot of things that we can do to help offset some of the disadvantages that our students have. Yeah. Just by virtue of the zip codes that they've been born into. 

Jeremy Singer: Yeah. the single biggest factor that leads to social mobility is a college degree, and people forget that and Raj Chetty and others work. Yeah. It dwarfs anything else. Yep. And while there's a lot of. F pushback against college. And yes, there are issues. debt without a degree and depending on the major and the school. But overall, if you wanna change your social mobility, it is, yeah.

College is the best vehicle. and I love what you did there. I think your personal story is, like almost the juxtaposition is almost the opposite. Instead of encouraging all students is actually discouraging a certain set of students. Yep. And you mentioned it, I just wanna highlight,  in, in 2020 [00:24:00] when you were leaving or close to leaving  nearly half the graduates at CPS had at least one early college or career credential, including, yeah.  advanced placement.  and we see again, the research that students who take AP courses versus peers feel more college ready, et cetera.  So that, is awesome. I will say,  I lived in the Bay Area and when I came back east,  we moved to a wonderful town in New Jersey, a very diverse 50% student of color,  25% plus Pell eligible.

And , the first thing I noticed is my kids were younger, . I obviously got involved, but the AP classes is before I was on college board even. Yeah.  but the AP classes were gated. You had to take an exam to get into AP classes. And so it was a real push to say, no, we should open it to all students, and, to their credit, they did, but how did you, get that acceptance in CPS? 

Dr. Janice Jackson: Yeah, I think it started, actually, and this is again, I didn't expect to talk about this, but when I was a principal, we actually had a partnership with the college board, called Springboard.

I don't know if you guys remember that. Yeah, of course. Yeah. It was like early two thousands with [00:25:00] Eric Smith, and I remember being a principal and they picked my school. It was a neighborhood high school on the west side, and the whole goal was to, get more access. And we did that. Once again, we opened it up.

 More kids took the class, more kids passed. They didn't bring down the district's rate. In fact, CPS was celebrated twice by the college board for, increasing access,  as well as, participation and completion or success. I will say also as a principal, I did the exact same thing. And this goes back to that autonomy we had as principals.

So I didn't have the district telling me who should be an ap. Every school could determine that. And I remember, and this was controversial when I did it. I basically said, any kid who wants to sign up for an AP class, they can. The teachers hated it because they were accustomed to taking their little books and looking up everybody's test score and gatekeeping.

And what we did say is a parent has to sign off on it. They have to come to an information like, but it was all stuff to make sure you knew what you were getting into. and, they had access. And then we also said, if you take [00:26:00] it, you can't drop the class. So that was the other thing.

That's right. So if you sign up, you really have to take it. And once again, this is when I was leading Westinghouse College Prep, we saw much more diversity in our advanced placement classes because of that. I will say with CPS, the early college piece is something that we're really proud of and you highlighted one of the efforts , that I led.

I am happy to say that they have even enhanced or,  increased that goal.  last time I checked with their college and career office, I think they have a goal of 70% of the students Wow. Graduating with like at least 12 college credits. I'm like, oh my God. That's great. That's a lot. that's great. I love to bring in the data.

That's bringing it in. So I don't know where they are towards that goal, but it just shows the level of ambition. we were trying to get 50%, we, met that.  but we don't wanna rest on our laurels. So how do we get access? The other thing that I do wanna highlight is in addition to AP courses, there's a big prioritization for,  Dual credit and dual enrollment. Yep. We have a strong relationship with the city colleges, which is led by Juan Salgado, who's [00:27:00] an amazing leader.  and then the last thing is we also represent, and, recognize their culture. So one of the other ways to get early college credit in Illinois is to get the seal of Biliteracy. Over  half of the students in CPS

are,  Latino.  not all of them are bilingual or, able to pass the seal of Biliteracy, but we offer that. And what an amazing feat that students prove their literacy level, both in their home language as well as in English. We recognize that and they get early college credit for it. And so it's putting systems and structures like that in place to incentivize both the students and the schools.

And we've just seen a lot of, positive results, that came out of that. 

Jeremy Singer: Yeah, congrats. And I'm glad the momentum, it's, always good when you leave somewhere in the momentum facilities. Yeah. Yeah. That makes me feel good. Yeah. So, last question before we go to Hope Chicago, when I was preparing, doing some research, I spoke to a number of people.

 they suggested that you were so popular, during your tenure and, it's a rare feat in Chicago 'cause there's [00:28:00] rarely,  this kind of universal popularity that you were, you would've been a s shoe in for mayor and you were encouraged to run. so one is that true? And if so, did you consider running?

Oh 

Dr. Janice Jackson: God, true depends on who you ask of,

I will say I'm not running for mayor.  that's, a job that I would consider,  at some point in my career, not right now. So I wanna be transparent about that.

 but I wouldn't do it because people like me or for some perceived level of popularity, I do it because of how much I love the city. And I also do it because I think I'm uniquely positioned to  Bring together different groups. I think that has always led to our success. And I think there's been, like we see on the national front a lot of polarization in our city.

Even though it's a blue city, there are different 

Jeremy Singer: Yeah, 

Dr. Janice Jackson: Places on that continuum. And I'm a person who is unafraid to go into any community, whether that's a boardroom of one of our Fortune 50 companies, we host there, or to go on the south and the west side and bring community leaders together around an issue.

Or put [00:29:00] 'em all in a room together to get something done. And that is what I care about, but that's not my focus right now. I'm gonna translate for our 

Jeremy Singer: listeners. I'm gonna say in seventh grade, you did think about being mayor, not superintendent.

Dr. Janice Jackson: I think you might have hit it on the head because in, around that time,  definitely felt like it was possible. We saw Mayor Harold Washington, who is like everybody's hero, right? Especially,  for a lot of young black people at the time in Chicago.  so definitely more to come, but not on my Bingo card right now.

All. 

Jeremy Singer: All right. All right. I'm, excited and I'll keep watching. So let's shift your next venture,  hope Chicago.  for listeners not to be mixed up with Chicago Hope, which I actually argue is a, very underrated medical drama series, but that's for another show. Yeah.  so why don't we start by briefly explaining why you started this organization, what the two generation approach is.

Dr. Janice Jackson: Yeah, hope Chicago is a fairly young nonprofit,  that we started,in 2021. And when I was transitioning from CPS, I didn't know that would be the next role.  but [00:30:00] when I was exploring like what to do next,  I met the founder of Hope through one of the board members who's a good friend of mine and learned about the model.

To be completely honest with you, it was too good to be true because the model basically provides,  debt-free, completely debt-free, both tuition, books and fees, even a stipend to students.  with no criteria, right?  and I grew up in a system where you had to jump through hoops and promise your firstborn to get a full ride scholarship like that.

And here was a group of people saying that they wanted to offer this to students because college affordability is probably one of the biggest issues that we have to address in this country. and I do believe that, and you started talking about that earlier also, when I met with the founder. And listen to the, hopes and dreams, and to be quite frank, the amount of money that needed to be raised in order to do it and the way you had to bring together the universities.

The school system, the students and the parents, and do [00:31:00] that in a credible way. It felt like this was the right thing to do and I'm so glad I took, them up on that.  what was also unique about Hope is we identified five open enrollment high schools, neighborhood high schools. We didn't go to the most selective schools in CPS.

We intentionally went where the need was greatest. And across those five high schools, about 57% of the students would matriculate into a two or four year college after graduation. The first year of Hope Chicago, when we made the announcement, this was without any interventions or the additional wraparound supports that we provided.

That number jumped to over 70% today. Wow. That number is in the eighties. It's about 85%, which really defies this notion that like kids don't wanna do anything or they don't wanna go to college. They most certainly wanna go to college. They are also smart enough and discerning enough to know that for a lot of people, college is a bad financial decision.

They may not articulate it that way.  I remember when we first started talking to [00:32:00] students about hope, one kid said to me, college is a scam. That is the sentiment that a lot of students have because if you look at the data, if you are first generation, a low income minority student, you have about a 50% chance of completing the first year of college successfully.

That means if you take on debt to do that. And you take on that financial risk, you may end up worse off financially than the person that doesn't even try. Yep, And go get a regular job. They may not say it like that, but they absolutely understand it. And so the reason this was an attractive role to me, it was one, the ability to, go out and raise those resources and give them directly to people, especially coming straight off the pandemic, which was a different way to think about philanthropy, was exciting to me.

But also I felt  the system of higher ed is ripe for, disruption and that this was a good time to do it because they were in a vulnerable position coming out of, COVID. And so we were able to successfully get every public institution in Illinois to sign onto this [00:33:00] every public university.

All of the city colleges in Chicago, and initially we didn't include private schools because of the expense, they wanted in so bad, we ended up getting, about 12 private schools in the local Chicago land area, and they actually discounted tuition. Significantly to be a part of this program, and a lot of people ask, okay, you took students who may or may not be college ready.

You know what happened once they got there the first year retention was about the same as it had been prior to our intervention, which was still good because we had more kids and they retained at about the same rate. So in effect, more kids were persisting. We went from 61% persistence to this last year, that persistence rate being about 75%, right?

That is almost 25 percentage points higher than what the national average says, and it is about the money. Most certainly our kids, if they don't want to, because they get stipends, they don't have to work and take on other responsibilities that sometimes get kids off track, but they also get a lot of direct one-on-one [00:34:00] support in order to be successful.

And if you talk to any of the students, and I would encourage you to go on Hope Chicago's website, they will talk about just the support and resources that they have compared to their peers, Right. Who are oftentimes left to their own devices to kinda figure it out or pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

So we help bootstrap them and help them get to a place where they can be successful. 

Jeremy Singer: Yeah, so, much here.  couple quick thoughts.  one is hope Chicago's a great program. I think there are other programs around when, back I was in Philly and I was part of, there's a program similar that helped, students, in a pathway through,  K 12.

if they went to college, it would get, tuition covered. I love the ROI, I mentioned earlier depressingly a couple weeks ago, NBC put out a poll and I think  only like 32% of adults think college is a good investment. At this point. it's, somewhat politicized.

 I think it was 22% Republican and 40%. But, both, regardless of party people are quite pessimistic. I think you point out a great point, which is debt without a degree [00:35:00] is the biggest risk, although that's not the only risk of, pursuing a higher ed degree. What, I love about the program is.

There's an implicit return on investment the investment is tuition opportunity costs. And, the return is, a promise of, higher wages in the future. And by reducing the investment, by covering that, it, it reduces the risk, but they still need to complete.

So really impressive. I, will just note. we're gonna be short on time, but an independent analysis of Hope Chicago found that a $4 and 20 cents return, in the socioeconomic benefits for every dollar invested. There's a much longer conversation I'd like to have. Maybe you've done your research.

Dr. Janice Jackson: 'cause I was definitely about to add that, so thank you. Oh, okay. 

Jeremy Singer: It is interesting. There's a much deeper conversation. I don't think we have time for little, maybe in Aspen. We'll get into it. It's unfortunate how infrequent there's so much data of early investment pays off, yet it's so hard to convince policy makers, the public, et cetera, to make those investments.

But it's really nice to hear it from Chicago [00:36:00] Hope. Yeah. So let's talk Aspen.  your work is focused on at a national level now, on an education conversation and wanna hear how you'd Translate your experience from Chicago into something that resonates with leaders in a variety of contexts.

'cause Chicago's a unique place. 

Dr. Janice Jackson: It is. And obviously I bring those lessons, to this work. But I am excited to be addressing education on a national level because one, I think that there's a absence of leadership in that space, that needs to, someone has to step in. I'm not saying I'm anointing myself, is that, but I do think we can bring together a group of people, which is what we're attempting to do at Aspen with our rising generation strategy group to really set a new course for education. You talked about, college and the role of it, and of course I've seen the disappointing data. The reality is though, we don't have a single place where we can send thousands of students upon graduation. For post-secondary [00:37:00] except college. This idea that college and career, go together.

I believe in that. I think it's great, which is why we're going to focus on career connected learning at Aspen, however, there are very few employers who will hire a student fresh outta high school. That is a problem.  and so how do we make sure students are prepared, especially in this economy where they have adults with

more education, more experience who are fighting for those same jobs. So we have a economic issue that needs to be addressed, and I think schooling is directly connected to that. I also think that there are big issues, that are impacting education, that sometimes the practitioners don't have time to like fully investigate or do the research on.

And I remember doing when I was a, principal, we enjoyed the benefit of organizations bringing those new ideas to us. And I wanna do that again.  things like AI and EdTech, people are wondering, will it be the disruptor that it. [00:38:00] says it's going to be. I think it will be.

And unfortunately education is always a little bit slower to embrace and adopt technology. Yeah. And advancements. And I think we do that, to our own detriment. And could a organization like Aspen help policy makers, district leaders, and others figure out the right use cases, either from a business standpoint?

So are there ways to save money so you can have more funds for the classroom, which is always a struggle, or are there more advances, advancements that need to happen in the classroom so that our students are better prepared? I don't buy into the hype that, AI is gonna take all of these jobs away.

I think there are a bunch of fields that are pretty resilient against that. I do believe that people who are more facile as we talked about earlier in ai, will take the jobs, right? And if we teach people how to use it effectively, I think that's a big concern. The other thing, we're gonna spend time talking a lot about.

Is something that has really, accelerated since the pandemic, which is alternative schooling [00:39:00] models. Now, 20 years ago, that was the charter versus district debate. It is far more complex than that now, right? people Are, opting out of traditional school systems. homeschooling is growing rapidly.

I think most people are unaware of the fact that the fastest growing group of homeschoolers are African American families. And it's because of, Historic, issues with the public school system, but now people finally feel like there are tools out there that allow them to pull their kids out and educate them, yet no one is regulating this work.

We don't have good regulation on ESAs and vouchers across the country. And so these are issues that will most certainly impact school systems that I feel like it's,  incumbent upon like leaders in our position, civic leaders, corporate leaders, to come together and really set out what are the right parameters to make sure we still have a strong education system.

Because I do believe a strong public education system is core to our [00:40:00] democracy. And Aspen, I think, is one of the few organizations who has the influence and credibility to talk about this. 

Jeremy Singer: No question. Hearing you, it sounds very clear that,there's a real need that Aspen can fill. So thank you for doing this.

you, know what you wanna change, but your theory of action is still evolving. Is that fair? Yep, it is. Okay, great. It's, 

Dr. Janice Jackson: and we think we shouldn't create that on our own. We think we gotta bring people from across different industries, different backgrounds, different ways of thinking and political views to really figure out that North Star.

Jeremy Singer: college board would love to join in on this. We, obviously, in the same way we're celebrating our hundred 25th anniversary, and traditionally our connection to career had been getting students to primarily a four year college and then saying that then the college would do it.

And the reality is, as more than half of high school graduates today don't go directly to a four year. They go to two year, or they don't go to college at all. And so we've had to challenge ourselves of Hey, [00:41:00] what's our value proposition? How do we help those students in their journey, not just The traditional four year, even if. To your point for many kids that is the best path. So before we wrap, I, always ask a set of, the same four rapid fire questions. These are not meant to be long. There are no right answers. Yeah. so first of all, what's one education buzzword you wish we could retire?

Dr. Janice Jackson: Intersectionality. Okay, good 

Jeremy Singer: one.  your favorite book about education or one that deeply shaped your thinking? 

Dr. Janice Jackson: One book I would encourage people to read is,  Karen Chenowyth's book, It's Been Done,  if you wanna be inspired, she really picks a few districts that have done the work.

Chicago is featured. It's an inspiring book. 

Jeremy Singer: Excellent.  name one thing that makes you bullish,  on the future for learners. 

Dr. Janice Jackson: I think our kids will always surprise us in ways that we underestimate, and so I am betting on young people.  and so that is what makes me optimistic.  [00:42:00] we have let them down in many ways, but I don't think they're gonna stand for that, and I can't wait to see in what ways they stand up.

Jeremy Singer: Love it. And last,  what's one class you wish,  all students had to take?  

Dr. Janice Jackson: I did it in CPS Civics. 

Jeremy Singer: Okay. yeah, Love hearing that a lot.  I recently read Ron Daniel's book at John Hopkins, and he was very big into civics and edge.  so ultimately, look, we're, united about improving educational outcomes.

 last question. Let's imagine we reconvene in three years and we're reflecting on, positive change in education, and in particular in your role in Aspen. What would you be most proud of? Encouraged. Three years from now and it's a dream scenario.  

Dr. Janice Jackson: in a dream scenario, just clarity around the future of education.

I think a return to accountability without all the politics. And when I say accountability, going back to our initial conversation, which is like showing up for students and families and making sure we can clearly look them in the face and say, we've done every single [00:43:00] thing within our power to make sure they can be successful.

I think that's what the system, that's what people expect from the system.  at large across the country. And if I could push a button, I would hope that every family thought that was true. Unfortunately, that's not the case today.  

Jeremy Singer: great words thank you for your time. Thank you for all the great work you've done to help students and families, and I'm really excited to  follow your next chapter at Aspen.

 taking the success you've had to national level. So thank you Dr. Jackson for, being on education equation. 

Dr. Janice Jackson: Thanks for having me. Have a great one.

Jeremy Singer: Thanks for tuning in today. Join the conversation by following the education equation wherever you listen to podcasts.