Jim Manly | KIPP Foundation - Transcript
Jeremy Singer: [00:00:00] Today our guest is Jim Manly. Jim is the Chief Schools officer at the KIPP Foundation, the national nonprofit that oversees one of the largest and most closely watched public charter school networks in the United States. His career spans over 30 years and reflects a deep commitment to educational equity and academic excellence.
Jim has been a teacher, a school leader, and a system leader. He has worked for a number of innovative organizations, including Teach for America and Success Academy, where he was the founding principal of Harlem Two. Under his leadership, the school became the top performing district school in the district cementing his reputation for building high performing, high expectation learning environments.
Jim, welcome to the podcast.
Jim Manly: Thanks, Jeremy. It's great to be here.
Jeremy Singer: So you began your career as a classroom teacher, I believe as seventh grade English teacher in Harlem. How'd you originally get attracted into education?
Jim Manly: Um, yeah, I really was just kind of that [00:01:00] graduate who really had not figured out what I wanted to do.
Um, this was all the way back in 1988. Teach for America didn't exist yet. Uh, and I answered a, uh, little memo in the, the college newsletter for, um, career advising around, uh, the opportunity to teach in New York City public schools. Didn't need, didn't need a teaching license. Went to the meeting. Uh, this was a guy who, uh, evidently also went to Princeton and convinced, you know, Wendy, that this might be a good idea.
She since, you know, a couple years later started TFA, uh, but this was a really, you know, all I did was just take the pamphlet and drive down to New York City Board of Ed and interview for the job from the, I think the board of examiners or whatever it was called back then. They were their own, uh, licensing unit, and, uh, started in a career that I had.
Very little training and even less aptitude for when I first arrived, but, uh, stuck with it.
Jeremy Singer: That's a, that's a great story. I, uh, you refer to Wendy as Wendy, co-founder of Teach for America. You know, huge impact. Uh, little side story, um, to. I, [00:02:00] I was in 1990. I applied the second year, I think, or 91. Yeah. For Teach for America.
I didn't get in, sadly, I, I didn't pass the test, but, uh, would've been interesting. I wonder how my career would've, uh, veered differently. So I was
Jim Manly: a recruiter in 91, so I might've interviewed you. You out? Yeah. Yeah.
Jeremy Singer: Thanks. Uh, I won't hold that against you. Okay, good. Probably all for the better.
So you're a successful teacher and at some point you decide that, um, you wanna do more than just a teach a teach a class.
Sort of take us through what went through your head and how, how you made that decision and what you did.
Jim Manly: Yeah. First of all, you're very kind to call me a successful teacher. I eventually got there, but uh, it wasn't after some, you know, some fits and starts. Uh, but I taught for a number of years in New York City public schools, um, then found TFA, uh, and worked there for three years.
Founded the DC office of Teach for America, um, and went to grad school. Uh, and at that point had kind of convinced myself, you know, I'd read like the [00:03:00] Paul Tough article that schools weren't the answer and I was gonna do housing and urban development. And after doing that for about a week, uh, at the Kennedy School of Government, decided no education has got more answers than housing and urban development.
Uh, and then. Tried from there to start my own thing. 'cause that was the, the small school movement that was happening back in New York City. Uh, tried, unsuccessfully. I got an echoing green fellowship, but tried to start, uh, my own thing. Dave Levin was doing the same thing with. Kip was much more connected and successful than I was.
Uh, but I was really intrigued by this idea that, you know, if you could get a bunch of like-minded folks who wanted to shake up the system a little bit. That you could create your own space. Um, and I eventually, uh, found, uh, a spot, uh, in a very mom and pop charter school in Teaneck, New Jersey, where I worked for, uh, about six years.
Um, and, uh, as the assistant director and then the director of the upper school. And, uh, learn both how hard it is, but also that, you know, [00:04:00] there's a lot of opportunity that there's just so much that we assume about schools and the way they need to function. That doesn't have to be the case. And that was really intriguing to me.
So I found charters to be, you know, a real opportunity to, to put public policy, to attest, to see if we could do something different. Um, and for the most part, I found, you know, incredible opportunity and success in that life. But obviously as we'll talk later, there are many. You know, many challenges to the, the charter space as well.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah, of course. And, and a, a couple things of your journey. Uh, when I advise younger people about their careers, I explain that rarely you, you can make sense of a career often in retrospect, but rarely does the career. Like do people have a plan that works? And I love that you start a graduate program, you realize it wasn't for you.
Uh, you had your own, you started to try to start a charter. It didn't succeed. And again, I think also people learned from not just success, but tremendously for failure. Just real quick, what, what, what, what happened with it? [00:05:00] Did you, did with the charter effort? You did, did you get it off the ground or did it just, you couldn't, you couldn't find enough interest.
What, what was the, what was the blocker?
Jim Manly: Yeah. Uh, so I was in. Back then, uh, charters had not yet been approved, so you still had to do like the small school movement. Um, and I found a job teaching in District 10, uh, where they were interested in trying to start, uh, a smaller school. And I didn't realize kind of what I had signed on for.
I signed on for a school within a school of a failing school that was under registration review. And I didn't get to pick my own staff. I didn't really get to choose my own curriculum, you know, and so I was managing a group of folks who. Answer to a principal kinda loosely affiliated to me. They were calling it a school.
And I just quickly realized that this was, this was not the opportunity I thought it was.
That's bad situation. Yeah. And just
Jeremy Singer: to, to, for our listeners, so, uh, district 10 people forget, but many years ago, New York City was divided into 32 community school districts that were different parts. So they didn't want to be one [00:06:00] monolithic school.
Um, I love to always, uh. Challenge people to the fact that, um, one in every, you know, 320 people in the United States is a, uh, is a student in the New York City, uh, system. Just to give some, some sense of the, the scale. So you eventually tell me how you eventually get to Success Academy.
Jim Manly: Yeah, so I, uh, was then, I was working in Teaneck and was more of a suburban community.
It was an interesting community to work in, but my heart was always back in urban education and it kind of kept my eye on what was happening. I had two small kids while I was in Teaneck as well. Uh, I was seeing some of my friends who had started charters kind of overwhelmed with the amount of time they were putting into it and was wondering whether I should do that with the two small kids.
But, uh, eventually saw an opportunity with te uh, with success. Uh, you know, and Eva had some really long, Eva Moskowitz, the founder of Success Academies, had this kind of wild introduction to what she was trying to do to, to get people to join, and a really complicated [00:07:00] application and interview process.
And I know something about it kind of grabbed me as very different and, and, uh, you know, not typical in the space, uh, and interviewed with her and I, you know. We really hit it off right from the jump. Um, and, uh, she told me about her plan to start 40 schools in about 10 years or five years. I can't even remember what, but whatever it was, it just sounded outlandish that this could possibly, you know, could possibly happen.
Uh, but, uh, signed on and joined at the very beginning of year two. So she had run the school, uh, with the kind of, uh, you know, a, uh, retired principal that they had brought over. And immediately Eva realized that this was not. Her vision for what she wanted to do. So she kind of took over the first school.
Uh, and then I joined, uh, with about two other people who were targeted to start the next batch of schools in the kind of the quick succession that she had planned to, to grow the space or to grow her, her, her network.
Jeremy Singer: And, and that's where you end up, uh, teaching leading a school in, in Harlem, is that correct?
That's
Jim Manly: right, that's right. So the second year. I mean, I think that [00:08:00] was she in place? I think we, it was three years before the first wave of her second, uh, group of charters started. Uh, and then I founded, uh, success two, which was located in District five. Um, and, uh, we had all kinds of pushback. Um, she made things difficult by kind of, uh, immediately targeting the teacher's union.
We had protests outside my building. Uh, they had ACORN in the teacher's union, literally picketing in front of my, uh. Uh, school was a great story there of just like, you know, New York City encapsulated. We have people protesting out front. These New York City cops roll up and see kindergartners being prevented from coming into school.
They immediately just walk up to these guys. They're like, you're gonna get lost right now. Uh, and, uh, the, the cops scattered, the, the protesters and all my parents cheered and we came into, you know, to start teaching and learning. But it was that kind of environment right from the get go with. Uh, how charters were received.
'cause we were co-located, we were in a public school [00:09:00] building. Uh, and so you can imagine some of the tensions that exist unnecessarily, but that, that existed. Yeah. Uh, back then.
Jeremy Singer: We'll, we'll get in later into some of the sort of controversies around charters. Uh, and as you said, Eva is, uh, in, in her own a bit of a lightning rod, so Yes.
Uh, that, that makes it even more complex. Uh, so, but so, so you're, you're principal of the school and, um, tell us, I, I think it was recognized as a top performing, uh, school in the district. Is that, is that correct? And tell us how you got there. What, what'd you do?
Jim Manly: Um, you know, I, I spent the. Previous year working with Eva and, uh, I think we were, we were a great mix of my experience of being in public schools for a long time and understanding the kids and the communities and, and how we needed to, to position ourselves and some good practices in education that I had learned over that time.
Coupled with just her, you know. Just, you know, [00:10:00] determination to be successful and kind of an unwillingness to listen to old conceits of what necessarily had to happen in public schools or how they had to operate. And she was willing to challenge me constantly. It was whether or not I was being rigorous enough, I was often saying, well, I'm not sure kids could handle that.
That seems like a lot to do in first grade. And she would just constantly push and say, let's give it a try. Let's see how it goes. Um, and the more that we gave kids. And the, the more rigorous we were, the kids just responded as you'd think they would, they're curious. They're, you know, really eager to take on new opportunities.
And what I learned was that it was all the adults who were holding back the, the, the, you know, the students from achieving at a high level. And we really took that. Seriously as I founded the next school, uh, you know, at hs A two, and, and we were clear with parents that we were just gonna go from the very first day we were gonna begin teaching and learning.
We were gonna, we used success for all in phonics. So we were kind of ahead of the, the game and doing the science of reading. And we had kids, you know, reading by the, we had [00:11:00] almost. I think probably by, this was the old f and p test, which wasn't super accurate, but by the end of kindergarten we had something like 96 or 97% of our kids on grade level, you know, so right from the get go, we were rigorous, we were following, uh, you know, a little bit of the old school methodology that was in schools that had been pushed aside by Lucy Calkins and other people.
And, uh, we were doing it the old way and really experiencing great results. Um, and so in the very first year that the kids took the test in District five. We were the top performing school in District five, including some of the gifted and talented programs they had started there. So it was kind of a shake up to the whole system right away.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah, the, the, the, it's funny 'cause the whole language, uh, I dunno what we call it, debacle, is, uh, comes up in almost every conversation. It's so, I, it's so funny. So I, if you were gonna summarize the Success Academy, at least early on, you know, theory of action, it's clearly about setting. Having very high expectations for every student.
Yep. What else? What are the other [00:12:00] one or two things you'd say that was a key part of it, either in Eva's vision or your vision?
Jim Manly: Yeah, I think the two things, one was from Eva and one was from me. I think the, just her level of excellence in every single. Facet of the operation from the school uniforms to the way that we, uh, ran orientation to the degree to which we communicated with parents and just the aesthetics of the place looked incredible.
Um, you know, and that sent a message to our staff right away that this was different. It was gonna look different. It was gonna feel different. We were gonna operate with excellence. It felt much more like a tech startup kind of feel where people just. Experienced, oh, you know, I better be prepared for this lesson.
I'm gonna be responsible to drive great results. The person next to me is working super hard. Um, you know, our recruiting and and application process was super rigorous to even attract teachers. We were small enough then to really be super selective with who we brought on. So that, I think that kind of just commitment and spirit of excellence.
Made a huge impact on my staff and the way that they kind of approached the whole thing. And then the, [00:13:00] I think the piece that I brought was just a real attention to kid curiosity. And, you know, Eva, as I said, it kind of, uh, pushed me in that direction, but I just realized and remembered how eager kids are to learn.
And so we really just transformed the space into a, you know, everywhere you went was a learning opportunity. Uh, we put stickers on the floor with all the, yeah. The numbers and the sight words and uh, you know, all of the walls were decorated with student work and these 3D um, you know, bulletin boards of, of really demonstrating what our kids were capable of.
And parents would come into this building and just say like, I didn't even know my kid could do this sort of thing. And so, um, I think just that attention to. Everybody's learning from the moment you get there till the moment you leave. I used to shake kids' hands in the morning and I'd ask them questions in order to get in, you know, and, uh, parents loved it.
Uh, at first, you know, my staff was like, really? You're gonna do that? Uh, but our parents, what, what
Jeremy Singer: was, uh, what was the biggest stumper of a question you'd ask? I would
Jim Manly: what? Well, as they got a little older, I got, I realized my kids had zero [00:14:00] understanding of geography. So it would be things like, what are the five boroughs in New York City?
And I would get like New Jersey, New York, California. Um, and so that, and parents were just a myth, right? Like they could not believe it. They're like, you don't know the five boroughs in New York City. Um, and so, you know, just things like that just really inspire the, and then I would take questions from my staff, so they would tell me.
You know, we're learning this week assimilate or metaphors. And so I'd ask those at the door. I'd ask chess moves. Uh, 'cause success has a real strong chess program. So it really became a whole tradition. And parents got really excited when their kids got in. And of course I always had a couple, you know, if you got stumped, I had an easy one to let you in the door so that people didn't have to freeze to death.
But it made for that whole experience that everybody was learning every day.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah, I was worried you were gonna say, like, your question would be like, what's the capital of North Dakota, which is probably not important piece. Um, but more local makes sense. I, I also, um, I went to, uh, public schools in Tarrytown, New York and Sleepy Hollow.
And it was, uh, you [00:15:00] know, in the seventies it was, uh, there was a GM factory there and it was, it was diverse. And, uh, what was interesting is my. First, second grade teacher at the same teacher, Tom Cataldo, he taught all the kids how to play chess. And everyone's always like, what are you trying to, and we all learn chess.
And I would go back every year to, to play Tom and, and, uh, all very diverse and kids. So I think there's something there. Um, so tell me, you gave us data about, uh, you know, reading levels at first grade and, and really impressive stuff of over 90% re um, uh, meeting some benchmarks. What, gimme a other, I love data.
You love data. What, what are some datas of that, that demonstrate the success you had there?
Jim Manly: Yeah, the first year in district five and third grade, and I won't get it exactly right, but we were in the sixties, uh, in terms of uh, percent of kids passing. Uh, and the, the co-located school we were at was in the, the teens.
Um, and so right away, you know, just kind of the, the level of differentiation that was happening, this is school that was actually fairly well regarded when. Tried to move in. People were like, you shouldn't mess with this school. It's one of the better schools in [00:16:00] District five. Um, which gave you, also gave you a sense that like, that was an argument and they were producing passing rates in the teens.
Um, and so, you know, I think right from what Eva had started was an eye-opener to folks. I mean, that was happening in, and it wasn't just at my school, it was she had started three additional schools. Two additional schools and HSA one at that point. And they were all in the sixties. I think one school was even in the seventies.
And that was just unheard of passage rates, uh, in New York City. And that was reading and math. Um, and so this was just a wholesale different, um, look for, for what had gone on in New York City. And I, you know, I had taught in really failing schools in my entire career. Where I was happy to get, you know, maybe a quarter of my kids at grade level.
Um, and so, you know, you realize the degree to which that becomes baked into how you start to view what's possible. Um, and so let
Jeremy Singer: me,
Jim Manly: yeah,
Jeremy Singer: let me challenge like, I, I'll, I'll wear a critic's hat and for sure, necessarily critic here, but you know, there'd be an argument [00:17:00] of, well, you cherry picked, uh, the top performance students, so it's not as impressive.
How, how would you answer that challenge?
Jim Manly: Yeah, I think, you know, for me. There are absolutely credible arguments to the idea that, you know, parents are a little bit more involved with charters. They obviously seek it out. The application is obviously real or not, obviously, but the is is very simple. It's just putting your name and address down to get in.
And then it's a picking, uh, from a lottery. Um, so it isn't that, you know, restrictive in terms of, but it does require a parent to even be aware that it's happening. Um. Yet. I think that the, that level of differentiation, you know, might explain five percentage points, 10 percentage points, but we were, you know, double and triple outperforming the local district.
And so for me, that that was really the, the central piece of it is like you're talking about kind of things that the margins that maybe would explain an 8% great gain or something like that. But this is just a completely different, uh, set of outcomes. Not to mention as we started to bring in kids [00:18:00] from other schools and Eva.
With my school in particular, tried to do something pretty controversial. This was when Bloomberg and uh, uh, Joel Klein were there, um, to make my school a district school. So right, they were gonna close down an unsuccessful school and bring all the students over to, to be zoned for the charter. That had never happened before.
At the end of the day, she lost that. But we still brought in a whole bunch of those kids because we had started the process. Um, you know, and within like two years, those kids were all performing at that seven, the 70, 80 percentage points. So this was when, you know, an even stronger argument to say like, these kids hadn't been cherry picked at all.
They've been brought from an unsuccessful school and we're outperforming. Um, but yeah. That's a great, those are great examples. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I, and
Jeremy Singer: I also, I think in some instances. You know, if you look at all the students in the geography that were in, the public schools that go there weren't that many performing at the, even if you were able to cherry pick, would you continue?
You wouldn't have that volume. So, um, I think that is a great explanation. You know, one of the things that I think [00:19:00] that I see school, I mean, it's not breaking big news, but, uh, there are great teachers, um, and many great teachers don't make great instructional leaders, principals, et cetera. Um. You know, and this is not specific to education.
There are many great, uh, software developers who are phenomenal software developers, and we try to sometimes say, oh, you're great at software. Now you're gonna manage a software team. And that, that often is the worst thing because they were great at developing software, they're terrible at managing and, and, and, and lead a team.
Yeah. So you made that transition. How, how do you see that and what, when you're looking at potential like great teachers, how do you determine when, hey, this person not only is a great teacher, but I think could be a great instructional leader?
Jim Manly: Yeah. Uh, I think it's, you know, it's kind of a restlessness in the right way.
I think a great teacher who's truly a great teacher. Doesn't look beyond the classroom walls and say like, you know, I wanna change this policy, or we shouldn't [00:20:00] have, you know, lunch at this time. Um, and yet I was constantly looking at what was, and part of that was, I think, born and bred out of being in really dis dysfunctional spaces for a long time and feeling like.
And maybe a little bit of going to public policy school of, you know, this could be done at a larger scale and getting frustrated with the degree to which I was passed, you know, when I was teaching and I finally got decent at it. You would pass kids on to the next grade level and see kids who had made all these gains seem to like go nowhere the following year.
Um, so that's your
Jeremy Singer: motivation, but what, what allowed, what were the things that made you successful?
Jim Manly: I think number one, uh, was I'm, I was, I'm a strong communicator and I've always been good at kind of talking to a lot of different, you have to be really good at talking to a number of different constituencies from your board members to, you know, the district leadership, uh, include, but then also parents, uh, and students as well.
And I think being able to calibrate and, and find the right way to, to communicate where you wanna be and what you want to do effectively makes a big, big [00:21:00] difference. Um, and then I think you really have to have a hunger to do things that make people a little uncomfortable. Um, and teaching isn't always that, right?
Teaching is often trying to make sure that your kids are comfortable so that they can learn. Um, but certainly what I saw from Eva and what she got from me was a willingness to say like, that's the best you can do. That's, you know, that's not good enough. And I hadn't really heard talk like that in education before.
No one ever said that to me. Um, you know, I was doing great. No matter what I did, I was doing great. And so, yeah, that, that,
Jeremy Singer: I, I really like that. 'cause I think the difference of, and I, I've never thought of it this way, you know, what makes you creating a culture in a classroom? Is it the same set of skills that you need to be a leader?
We're, you know, we all struggle or most people struggle with giving direct feedback. You, you, you, you know, all of that. I can't tell you how much training we do at college Board to try to help people be more honest with each other and direct. 'cause we know at the end that's valuable, but, but it's still just for of [00:22:00] reasons blocked.
So, yep. That, that's really, um, interesting. I wanna jump into Kip 'cause, uh, that is, uh, also, you, you've had many very interesting, uh, segments of your career. Um, so like going into Kip, tell us, tell, tell the listeners, you know, what sets Kip apart from other charter schools. What is it that, that, either the theory of action or what, what, how does KIPP operate differently?
Yeah. And what, yeah.
Jim Manly: And, you know, I watched kind of kip uh, because it was a Teach For America product. Dave Levin and Mike Feinberg were both, uh, teach for America, um, recruits. And, uh, so I was certainly aware of it. And, and as it grew, you know, I would hear Eva make side comments of like, you know, they had a great idea to start, but they got misled and, you know.
Down the wrong path. They're not rigorous enough. Um, and so that was a little bit of my mindset of, of kind of keeping an eye on kipp. Um, but there, you know, the, I think the, the general, and then funny, quick, funny story is that I met [00:23:00] Dave, um, on a school tour because success was having such outsized results.
Uh, they had an accelerator tour and we're bringing in different charter authorizers. And I met Dave and of course he hung back. And when we first met was like, you gotta come work for me. Uh, this school's great. This is what I want it to be like. Um, but Kipps all operating ethos was much more one power to lead.
So they wanted to find great people and they could just do their own thing. If you were interested in Capra and uh, did like Brazilian martial arts, you could start a school. Um, and so that worked great for those founders and as soon as they passed it on, it became much more difficult, um, which we'll talk about in a second.
But, uh, but what was powerful about kipp and I think really, you know, because it was really the original, it was like the OG of charter schools, right? Was this deep commitment to communities and families and this idea that like. Once you are a kister, you are a kister for life. We're gonna follow you, um, you know, through middle school and originally get you into a private school and high school and get you into college.
Uh, but that real sense of [00:24:00] partnership, they were gonna do home visits. We were gonna be right by your side to and through college. Uh, which I found very appealing and, and kind of, uh, went back to a little bit of my more, uh, you know, roots in the classroom. Uh, I often joked when I arrived that I. Was the most left wing person at success.
And then I was, as soon as I took the job at, at kipp, I was the most right wing person there. So, you know, so, uh, and I think that's what, what Dave wanted from me, uh, at that point. But, uh, they, you know, they did have a very different view of how to operate with students. And I think I was, I was able to, with Dave find, uh.
A little bit of a re correction I think for Kip to, to say like, rigor was always part of the equation and I don't know how that didn't, you know, translate as we got a little older. Um, but that's certainly been my take as I've arrived back at Kip. Is that like, in none of this, did we ever wanna communicate that we didn't believe kids could achieve at the highest possible level?
Jeremy Singer: Yeah. So I see the thread of, uh, the, the commonality [00:25:00] of being all in, uh, yeah. With the student and family and being there, you know, sort of saying this is a, a commitment. And it's interesting 'cause I think. TA, that's one of the many, many virtues of TFA. Also that the t FFA mafia is probably the strongest group of, uh, I've ever seen.
Mm-hmm. So much talent has come through there. Uh, I'm still trying to imagine a, a, a Cierra uh, school. I'm trying to imagine how that would love. Um, but, uh, but you said something I think really important. Uh, well, a number of things, very important, but, but one of the things is I constantly are trying to find.
Educational interventions, tools, whatever that have impact and then scale, it's really, really hard. Um, there's some things and, and, and a big part of that, one of the, the reasons is. So much of the initial success is based on the individual and that is hard to scale 'cause there's only so many individuals.
And you mentioned that I'd like to go a little deeper. So, you know, ki tried to find you [00:26:00] really early on at least, uh, dynamic, uh, game changing leaders who could have a vision and, and, and deliver on that vision. That's great, but it's not easy to find. It's maybe you find 2, 3, 5, maybe even 10. But to find 200 is, is yeah, I would argue next.
Impossible. So they hit that wall, like when did they realize that, do you think? And, and, and what did they do to shift, uh, saying We're not always gonna find this, you know? Yeah. Yeah. 0.1% type leader.
Jim Manly: I think that DA Dave started to realize it. I mean, I came over in 2015, um, and I think that was the first point where Dave was starting to see that the, the results were, were not growing at the rate and success was starting to really outperform.
I Common had come over into New York City, another charter, uh, group, uh, was outperforming, uh, and then, you know, I think the board became aware they were. They had been used to being the top performing charter in the, you know, in the neighborhood, and suddenly were not. [00:27:00] Um, and then, uh, you know, my set of results came in.
We quickly made some changes and, and saw, uh, almost double digit, well, no, not almost. We saw double digit gains in math and reading even in the first year I was superintendent. Um, and I think that moved Dave and, and KIPP nationally to think that, you know, there was something that needed to be changed in the model.
And just about that time, the pandemic hit. Um, and that really shook things up at KIPP because as you were talking about, if you don't have strong systems, if you're reliant on individual people and you have a disruption at the level of the pandemic, and people leave and you come back to school and there's new folks, if you don't have those systems to back it up.
And that's really what we experienced. So we were plateauing as a national organization before the pandemic, but certainly coming back from the pandemic, our scores were not where they needed to be. And we've had a really difficult time getting them caught back up. Uh, and it's part of my charge in my current role is to figure that out.
But, uh, so to me I think that's, it's been an ongoing conversation, [00:28:00] but the, the pandemic certainly more than anything really highlighted the need to have stronger systems. 'cause if you don't have it, you're, you're. Asking brand new people to, to know what to do. And that's, that's a big ask.
Jeremy Singer: And give an example of like a, a, a system element that you think is, is fundamental to, to, yeah.
That you're trying to implement or have implemented.
Jim Manly: I'm glad you asked that. I mean, our, our whole strategy is, is kind of based on, uh, Shavar. Jeffries is our CEO of the, of the KIPP Foundation used to work for Democrats for education reform. Uh, and so he brings to it, uh, you know, a, a determination to get us back on top, uh, but really has given me, uh, and, and.
Asked me to, you know, what worked for you in New York City? What are, you know, and I kind of listed out a number of systems and habits that we developed, uh, at KIPP NYC. And we've really tried to just use those as the, I mean, we've changed the curriculum to make it a national curriculum in ELA and in math.
But in from my per, you know, from my vantage point, that's just kind of the setting of the table. I don't really believe that [00:29:00] curriculum drives. Uh, student learning nearly as much as they're having great systems, but it's easier if everybody's using the same, you know, uh, um, songbook. So, uh, we've really d this year, uh, and going forward, have dialed down on kind of two really crucial systems.
Number one is what we call academic progress meetings. That at least every other week you're gathering your data, you're looking at formative data, and you're developing action plans to specifically target what's lagging behind. Uh, and you check on that on a very regular basis and have real clear reporting mechanisms.
Uh, and the second is, uh, a coaching model, um, which sounds kind of standard, like everybody gets teacher coaching. But what we've tried to do is really, uh. Define that as, as three specific actions. One is just intellectual prep. Do you really understand the purpose of this lesson and what it's trying to do?
Have you written the exemplar for it? So can you, you know, model what kids need to do? The second you have to be open to getting coached right in the moment that we call that real time coaching. And we're gonna give you comments [00:30:00] as you're teaching. Uh, and the third is we're gonna gather the student work.
After it's done, we're gonna look at it with you and we're gonna determine whether or not, you know, with, despite what. We practiced in what we went over. Like the ultimate determinant of whether you're successful is not me checking a box on a rubric. It is how many kids got the, got the point of it. And to me like.
It seems so obvious, and I'm sure your listeners are like, really? That's a, that's a breakthrough. But, but so much of my whole rating all throughout my years of teaching was no one ever grabbed the student work. No one ever said that. The kid, you know, they said that was a great lesson. Um, and it was just based on adult sitting and watching it thinking, oh, I really enjoyed that lesson.
Um, regardless of what kids got out of it.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah, and I, and I, I, I agree. While sounds obvious, it's the, you know, the devil's in the detail, how you implement it, how you implement it, well, how you stick to it. Um. You know, we have a college board, the meeting norms, and they're the obvious things, and yet people fall off and don't follow.
And it's really hard to get that. It is very funny. You probably [00:31:00] saw me smiling. Uh, I ran for a brief time, a, a wonderful organization called Partners in School Innovation in the Bay Area. And they worked in, uh, we worked in sf, uh, San Francisco Unified School District, Oakland, San Jose. Um, and, and, and we, at the time we was sort of.
A little bit. Uh, a started a little after, uh, teach for America, but the idea was to embed AmeriCorps teams with a, in instruc, an experienced structural leader in schools for like five to seven years. Not that AmeriCorps would change every couple of years, but, uh, long-term. And our three pillars of our theory of action, you hit on all three.
Uh, you know, one was high fidelity implementation of whatever the curriculum program. So we didn't sort of take a a stand, although. In certain places, maybe we should have, we were in California primarily. So, uh, but, but one was like, Hey, let's not quibble on the, the instructional, uh, pedagogy. Let's look, let's make sure it's implemented well.
'cause often that's where there's some failure. Two was peer coaching and created sort of a, an environment where teacher could help teachers or instructional leaders could. Um, [00:32:00] and then three was using data to drive instruction. So all sounds very simple. Um, I could tell you a million stories of why, uh, as you know, that is not simple and often fails.
Let's go back to the data. So make your case of you. You, you know, I, I, it was fun to hear how you, KIPP is very aware of the other charter programs and impact and as, as well as the public. But like, what, what will be the case for Kip as far as data? And I know there's some, some studies that have come out, uh, demonstrating that, but share with our listeners.
Jim Manly: Yeah, I think, you know, KIPP has kind of two stories at the same time, right? There's, there's the story I just told you about the results, plateauing and, and then post pandemic not being where they, where they need to be yet. If you look at some of the, you know, the Credo study, which was this. Uh, multi-year study where they looked at, and this goes back to an earlier question, uh, parents who applied and didn't get into charter schools and parents who applied and did get into kipp, and then they followed those, uh, longitudinally all the way out into their college outcomes.
Um, and we were something like. Two and a half times more likely to [00:33:00] graduate kids from college. So these are really profound impacts, uh, which, you know, perhaps we'll talk about a little bit later because I think from a public policy perspective, you don't see kind of innovations like that delivering, uh, at that scale.
Um, and then not get adopted much more widely. Um,
Jeremy Singer: that's an outs. Impact. Yeah, it's hard target.
Jim Manly: It's, it's really remarkable. Um, and so, and, and that aspect continues to be such a source of strength for kipp, the degree to which, once we get kids into college, we do counseling with them, we stay in touch. We, uh, do many different things to make sure they're engaged and, and go all the way to and through college.
Um, and so those results, you know, continue to be a real strong point of, of what. KIPP does, and, and my theory is just imagine how much more successful we would be if, if more of our kids, uh, were at grade level in the same way that, you know, success Academies and now KIPP NYC, where we, you know, our goal is something like having 75% of kids entering ninth grade at grade level.
Because then high school becomes a very different experience where you're not [00:34:00] remediating skills where you're not still teaching kids how to read. Um, you know, obviously high school just presupposes a number of, uh, you know, basic. Uh, assumptions around what kids can do that we're trying to get there. Uh, and so that's what we're trying to, to get back to.
But, you know, I think KIPP's reputation in terms of what we've been able to do, what we call, you know, we like to judge ourselves in what we call the estimated college completion. So we look at where our kids match to schools and their likelihood of graduating a first generation student of color. Uh, and we've done a really good job of finding those schools that do a good job of graduating our students, matching them, uh, really closely, and then supporting them, uh, throughout, but also making sure that, you know, our high school experience really prepares them for some of the rigors of college, but also some of the, you know, which we, we can also talk about like just the transition to going to college because Yeah, these are students who, you know, haven't had ex.
Experience like that before. And so, uh, I think KIPP does a really good job of thinking we need to prepare kids for what it's gonna be like to, to be in a predominantly white [00:35:00] institution. Uh, and, and to have to kind of do, you know, a, a whole bunch of stuff that's not necessarily part of the high school equation that we're trying to make sure we prepare kids for.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah, there's, uh, that's great that you do that and there's so many programs, uh, that, that, that have that as a mission. So I, we'd be remiss if we didn't, uh, discuss, uh, ai. It's, it's obviously having an impact. Um, has Kip started to figure out how to, to, to leverage ai.
Jim Manly: I think we have, I mean, we've started certainly, uh, and I'm, you know, old enough, uh, to be a little skeptical of kind of educational innovation of, uh, you know what, uh, we could probably list about 15 of them, what we've heard over the time.
Individual learning and Chromebooks, whiteboard, flip classroom. Yeah. Like all, all the, all the things. Uh, AI does feel different in certain respects, um, but in some ways also. I'm not, you know, there's been times where I saw the whiteboard, it was like, oh my gosh, it's so much better than the chalkboard I was on.
But, uh, you know, [00:36:00] AI for me is not one of those things that initially I'm really excited about. Right? I see all the potential, uh, for students to be disengaged to wonder why this is relevant anymore. If a computer can write this essay that I'm supposed to write, uh, you know, with three prompts, why am I doing it?
Um. So that part concerns me and I certainly with the addition of cell phones and watching kids being completely disengaged in school, um, I'm nervous about it. I do see on the, you know, on the teaching, uh, side of the equation and the, the degree to which we can create. Productivity tools for teachers. I see tremendous potential, and I think our teachers are rightly saying that, you know, just because when you are, um, you know, a generation X guy and willing to stay till 10 o'clock at night to finish your lesson plans, that's not a, you know, a model that I nest.
Necessarily wanna subscribe to. I'm not sure it was ever a healthy model. Right. And so I think we're seeing potential for AI to like grade students papers and get them back feedback immediately. [00:37:00] That's incredibly helpful. I just was in a, uh, a sales pitch around it, uh, doing teacher observations and writing a really, yeah.
Pretty. Pretty accurate, uh, observation, input on, uh, uh, what they saw in the classroom. So I think those aspects are really exciting. 'cause it, it allows feedback to happen that much more quickly. And I think kids benefit from feedback. The part that I worry about is our kids still need this basis of rigor.
Um, that doesn't seem to be enhanced by ai. At least what I have seen only seems to make kids' lives easier, which is not really what I, what I mean, I love kids to have easy lives. Right, right. You don't wanna make you necessarily, but
Jeremy Singer: part of learning is. You need some level of friction. Yeah. So I, you know, I, I, it's interesting 'cause I, I, I do see, you know, the college board and, and, and our members, we are seeing already, uh, you know, the, the benefit at a minimum is, uh, allowing teachers, professors, you know, instructional leaders to be much more efficient and, and [00:38:00] take some of the.
Tasks that frankly they viewed as more laborious and time consum. Whether that is grading, you know, it can speed up the grading or replace the grading. Um, it can, you know, as you said, setting up, uh, the, the, the, um, actual lessons, plans, et cetera, et cetera. So there's. You know, million things that can, can either accelerate or replace that, uh, tasks that teachers do.
Um, we What would you say, like, hey, teachers have, let's say we figured some of this stuff, they have 40% more time as 40% of what they were doing gets done by ai. What would you want the teachers to, to, you know, assuming replace that 40% with.
Jim Manly: I feel, I feel like when I was a successful teacher and I stopped talking all the time and sat side by side with students as they wrote, um, that was some of the best kind of back and forth and, and kids saying like, slow down.
Those are great ideas. Gimme a chance to go try and put some of those in place, right? Like. That is the opportunity that it feels [00:39:00] like AI could grant us. Right? So I don't have to sit at the front of the room marking up everybody's, you know, comma mistakes and instead Yes. Can really sit side by side through the, you know, the idea generation piece, uh, the revision piece, but, and also to make sure you're not using ai.
'cause I think so much of the work now has to be done in class. I think there's obviously room for doing homework assignments. And you'll probably recognize when your kids, I mean, one of the pieces is, you know. Our kids are getting so sophisticated, they even now put in errors. Uh, yeah. Yeah. Well there's the ai Yeah.
Jeremy Singer: There's actually AI can do that for you to like make it less recognizable. Yeah. Yeah.
Jim Manly: So, but to me that just frees, you know, the, the, the teacher not working productively, uh, with kids in the room is a loss at this point. So if AI can just make sure that the vast majority of the time that you're instructing, you're letting students do work and you're observing 'em do the work, and you're giving them those kind of real time coaching and feedback pieces, to me that's, that's really the game that, that.
You know, feels kind of [00:40:00] old school, but, but is really where kids learn. And I think even some of the gains that you've seen from kids using ai, some of the studies have shown that, you know, a few weeks out, it all dissipates. And so there is something about the human relationship and getting feedback and the back and forth that happens in any conversation that I think, I would hope that AI could really get us back to like, you know, when I walk into a classroom and I can't find the teacher.
Yeah. Uh, I know that I'm in a good classroom. It's a good thing.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah. Yeah, no, I think that's great. And I don't think anyone would argue. Um, and I like the vision. I think we'll, we'll, that will manifest. I also think the risk is real. We, we don't have time to go into it now, but we're spending a lot of time at college board.
Um, 'cause in, like for example, in the writing process, uh, there are parts that early on the writing process, if a student is using AI or you know, mostly. Uh, reliant on ai. They don't develop certain skills later in the writing process. It's actually quite useful and efficient, and it'll, it doesn't, um, stunt their writing growth.
So we're, we're, we're trying to come up with [00:41:00] models and, and technology that allows, um. Students to, to, to still build the core skills that they may be, they may be losing. So stay tuned on on that. Um, so let's, you know, you mentioned some of the policy angle. If you're stepping back, uh, you know, what are the, at the policy level, what do you think needs to change whether it's relevant to charter more broadly to, to, to, not toward AI just or can be toward ai, but more generally, um, you just have a great perspective on that.
Jim Manly: Yeah, I mean, I, you know, right now it feels kind of like, is there any policy that that's happening right now in, in education? Uh, you know, it feels like a kind of a space where we're, we're walking away and what's frustrating to me is that so many answers have become clear in the last 10 or 15 years. You know, the science of reading, even the work we're doing now with our middle schoolers to get them caught back up on, you know, lagging skills, we're DIBELS testing, which is an old school.
Yeah, of course. Foundation, but we're doing it [00:42:00] up for our eighth graders and there's more like choral reading and having them read out loud. All those things we're told not to do are actually really helpful to kids who, who have lagging skills. Um, that to me is an encouraging aspect of public policy. I do see, and you know, here, like red states, I think are ahead of blue states and saying, we need to do more with foundational literacy.
We need to have it expand into upper grades. Uh, I think that movement, if we can continue it would be a strong one to make sure teachers are all trained in the science of reading. Uh, that to me is exciting. I think on the other side, you know, the, the movement towards private school vouchers are concerning to me.
It feels like we've lost the lessons of, uh, what was happening in schools where. What I think works about charters is you still have to meet the rigors of the public school experience. Kids need, you know, special needs, need to be attended to, you have to make sure this is for all students. You can't kick kids out.
Um, you know, and you have to have rigorous measurement systems of the public. Uh, that concerns me on all of those levels. 'cause I think [00:43:00] charters have demonstrated that if you give people, you know, you put the net up, you say you gotta, these are the rules of the game. Operate by, you know, public school standards, but within that we wanna innovate, um, yeah.
And allow kids to, you know, to be challenged and to do work that's really meaningful to them. And then you get these results, that success and KIPP and uncommon and achievement first idea, you know, who've really changed the policy game. And, and it would seem, you know, if you had this kind of level of outsized response in a cancer trial, you would immediately take people off the placebo and say like, right, right.
Do it. Yeah. Yeah. Like, and we're not doing that. So to me, that's. Such a loss of the conversation that we've gotta get back to is that like we actually know a lot more answers than we think and we need to bring it to parents to say like, your kids don't have to get these kinds of results. They could be doing so much better.
Yeah. But we've gotta be serious about it.
Jeremy Singer: Yeah. And I, I just want you said about private vouchers, I just wanna like. Uh, underscore your point, which is, uh, a lot of success. [00:44:00] A you know what, if you don't measure things, it's very hard, if not impossible to, to demonstrate success and, and your, your fear is also my fear, not just with schools, but more broadly in education, that you, you know, we're, we're losing some common metrics and if each, uh, if each school or district or state has their own measures of success and they don't sink.
We're not gonna know what's working and, and, and that, that's a bit terrifying. I'm gonna, I, with my guess, I do a rapid fire round. So these are very short answers. Uh, I have four questions for you. First is, what's one educational buzzword you wish we could retire?
Jim Manly: Uh, developmentally appropriate.
Jeremy Singer: Okay. Tell, tell.
That's great. I love it. I won't go more. Um, I think people will understand what that is. Uh, two. What's your favorite book about education or one that has deeply shaped your thinking?
Jim Manly: Why students don't like School by Daniel Willingham.
Jeremy Singer: That's mine. [00:45:00] That was my favorite too. It's so good. So good. It's so good.
And for those who don't know, I think it's the best example. There's a big gap between, and we'll talk, I'm, I'm hoping to have Daniel at some point, but there's a big gap between. There's all this, uh, cognitive and behavioral science research about how people learn, but the application is quite difficult to apply in a classroom, and he sort of, uh, it's the best illustration of ways you can turn it.
So I, I love that. We love the same book three. Name one thing that you're bullish on, uh, around the future for learners.
Jim Manly: Yeah, I think giving teachers more time. I, I do think AI could give teachers more time and that if, as long as they focus on the right things on student inputs, I mean student outputs, uh, yeah. Could be great.
Jeremy Singer: And last one, uh, one class. You wish all students, whether high school class, college class, whatever, had to take.
Jim Manly: I think I'm gonna go back to geography, uh, just based on some of the, I, I think the kids' appreciation of just how big the world [00:46:00] is and how much there is that we could still learn about is, uh, I'm shocked by the level of even some of my most outstanding kids in senior of high school who still can't tell me more than about three foreign countries, uh, in the world.
So I feel like we've not done a great job there. Great.
Jeremy Singer: Um, well, Jim, you've been, uh, fantastic guests. Uh, congratulations and thank you for all the great work that you've done throughout your career and that you continue to do your, your inspiration around that. Uh, really appreciate you coming on the podcast and, uh, we'll, we'll connect again in the future.
Jim Manly: Thanks so much. It was a pleasure.
Jeremy Singer: Sure. Uh, I'm gonna go off. Hang on. All right. Take it away whenever you're comfortable, Jeremy. Great. So Jim, uh, thank you so much for everything. One last question, uh, for our listeners. A any parting thoughts, any one big, uh, message you'd like to send [00:47:00] when you have this opportunity? Well, thanks for that.
Jim Manly: Yeah. I, I, I think the, the piece that I am constantly and, and it came out in the interview today, but. We know so many of the answers of how to create great schools, um, and how to reach kids and let them maximize their incredible potential. Uh, and the fact that we don't do that at scale as a country just feels like such a missed opportunity for us.
We talk all the time about things that we're not tapping into as a country, but for me, just the potential of our kids. Uh, and the degree to which we write it off every year is just, that's the way it goes. Um, and our NAP scores don't increase. And all these other things that are telling us blinking red, you know, be concerned.
Uh, and we know the answers. We've got schools that are just performing at incredible levels, delivering results for all kinds of students with different backgrounds. Um. Just, you know, you can point to so many places where in medicine and other places, like, we don't know the answer. We don't know the answer.
Here we do. Um, and we're not [00:48:00] doing enough about it. And that, that part is, uh, hopeful. You know, I'm hopeful that somebody can pick up that banner in the future and, and demonstrate that that's, uh, a, a giant win for our country, uh, and for our kids. If we could, if we could put that all together. Yeah. And, and I, I'll say the whole premise of this podcast is there's very few things that have been proven.
Jeremy Singer: Um, so it even more imperative when there is a success that has scaled that we continue to scale it as, as you said. And it's, it's, it's even more important because there are so few within education that have, have shown success, continued success, so. Keep up the wonderful work. Uh, you've, you've devoted your career to it.
You're having a real impact and, and you're really inspiring. So thank you so much for the time, Jim. My pleasure. Thank you.