Sari Factor | Imagine Learning - Transcript

Jeremy Singer: [00:00:00] I am thrilled to introduce today's guest, Sari Factor. There are a few people in education with greater depth and breadth of experience than Sari. She's a former colleague, a current friend, as well as a long time wheat and Terrier lover.

Sari, thank you for the time. 

Sari Factor: Glad to be with you, Jeremy. 

Jeremy Singer: Before we jump in, a bit of a more formal introduction as appropriate. Sari is Vice Chairman and Chief Strategy Officer at Imagine Learning. She began her career as a teacher in math and has over 40 years of experience in education, including K 12, publishing, technology and services.

Sari joined Imagine Learning in 2011 and served as CEO of Edgenuity, a division of Imagine Learning for a decade prior to her current role, she's held executive leadership positions at successful education publishing and learning technology companies, including Kaplan, McGraw Hill, Houghton Mifflin, and Everyday Learning Corp.

Now, Sari, we've often commiserated over the years of how [00:01:00] hard it is to change some of the systemic issues that limit student success. I think we've been having this conversation for 20 years now. NAEP, The National Assessment of Education Progress informally considered. The Nation's report card came out earlier this year.

The results were quite sobering. Reading scores were down both for fourth and eighth graders. And while there was a slight improvement for fourth grade math, this was driven by large gains in the highest performing students. In both math and reading the gap in performance widened. You posted on Forbes in March about these results and what as a nation we need to do to improve educational outcomes.

In your piece you wrote, we need to quote, rethink K 12 curricula as well as consider other broad changes to truly imagine student outcomes. What needs to change around curriculum and how is Imagine Learning thinking about this? 

Sari Factor: You started with how we've commiserated on how hard it is to make change in schools, and I think it's probably worth having a [00:02:00] conversation first about that because schools are inherently difficult places to change because it's people, these are systems of people. We're messy. We're all different. We have varied backgrounds and motivations and emotions and different rates of growth. I think about even our own organization, any organization I've been a part of, look how hard it is to change organizations and we are paying people to do that. Very true. So it really requires strong vision and leadership and a plan with accountability and a way to measure progress. It's hard in schools because of the short tenure of school leaders, school superintendents, and huge rates of teacher turnover, especially in the last decade.

But I think there is recognition and some of the bright spots in the Nape show when districts or states take a leadership role and say, this is what we're gonna do, folks. Let's all get on board and do it. And there have been a lot of policy [00:03:00] discussions about it. Science of reading is a great example of that.

Things can change. So the glimmers of Hope, like the Mississippi Miracle in Reading and some of the Louisiana, you know, progress Tennessee progress with their, uh, focus on high quality instructional materials. Um, we can point to. Positive changes in the school district of Philadelphia, Los Angeles Unified, both of them, customers of ours who implemented our high quality instructional materials and are seeing the results in Nape.

It takes time. Change does not happen overnight. It often takes three to five years to see the results of those efforts. And we are impatient about wanting to see results faster. 

Jeremy Singer: No question. Uh, these are, uh, very hard things to move. Your point about uh, these are people systems, uh, we need to be patient with change.

All very fair. Um, and it takes a certain level of leadership and continuity that often Um, but I'm glad you called out some of those successes, but can [00:04:00] we talk a little bit about knowledge-based literacy programs and problem-based math curriculums. Can you help our listeners understand what those are?

Sari Factor: Sure. So both knowledge building literacy, and problem based mathematics stem from the evidence that we learn people learn by making connections to what we already know. So, you know, we live in a context. We're making connections all the time. That is how our brains work. And both pedagogies emphasize students actively constructing understanding through collaborative inquiry and authentic real world problem solving rather than.

You know, being a passive receptor of information. Yep. So students become active, inquirers, engage in ongoing reflection and assessment as part of the learning process. It's really critical to the success of these kinds of new, uh, and maybe the not so new pedagogies. 

Jeremy Singer: And you talk, you know,, there's a broad classification of these programs and then there's what you all provide.

And [00:05:00] you mentioned a couple L-A-U-S-D and a few others that are using your curriculum. So can you talk more about like, how that's worked and what is the sort of evidence of success, even if it's initial. 

Sari Factor: Sure. So, um, we have, uh, curricula in lots of subject areas. Imagine Im, which uses illustrative mathematics as its core is our K 12 math offering.

Uh,  we have a K eight Twig Science program uses the same kind of, idea, uh, and traverse Social studies program follows a similar philosophy for social studies. Uh, and we're working on a new ELA program, brand new K five, which I'll be able to talk about later in the fall. Um, so, uh, I'll give Philadelphia as an example.

Great new superintendent came in. Dr. Tony Watlington, he decided we really have a problem in Philadelphia. Our kids can't read. They're really struggling. Um, and he decided we need new curriculum across the board. And so he did an RFP for everything. Now, that is a bold and ambitious idea, but he had the support of the [00:06:00] community and the families.

Um, and he, he, he, you know, kind of laid down the gauntlet. He adopted, uh, illustrative,  uh, mathematics, our Illustrative Mathematics program, K 12. They had been doing some work prior to the adoption to get teachers ready, which is advice I would give to any district is think about that year zero implementation.

How are you thinking about you know, preparing teachers, preparing your community for the change. Um, really smart way to implement. Um,\ they implemented K 12 math two years ago, and then last fall, the beginning of the 20 25 school year implemented. I. Our EL education product and, um, you know, we have been working side by side with them from the beginning.

Every teacher got days and days of training and preparation on the product and, you know, we follow kind of, um, Heather Hill's approach. Yeah. You know, meta analysis that she's done about really [00:07:00] grounding the professional learning in the curriculum so that the teachers. Can try it, see it, reflect on it, and come back and ask questions.

Uh, and that has been effective. And 

Jeremy Singer: have you, is it too early to see gains student achievement gains or how, what, what's the scores? No, that they 

Sari Factor: are beginning, they have, they have shown a gains on the Pennsylvania test, but also they feel like they, NAP scores are like a vindication of the direction that they're moving.

But it's very early days. Yeah. Yeah. 

Jeremy Singer: Yeah. That's great. \ And you mentioned sort of the work that you all do in the implementation. Uh, but another topic that we've been sort of, uh, going back and forth a again or commiserating over for probably 20 years has been the challenge of getting pedagogically designed.

Rigorous programs implemented successfully in schools. You know, too often what is manifested in the school is not true to the program design and the research behind it. So. You know, you [00:08:00] hold out of Philadelphia as a success so far. Uh, can you help, uh, us understand like when that doesn't happen, what are the barriers?

What are the things that prevent the high fidelity, uh, implementation? 

Sari Factor: Yeah, so part of it is, um, helping educators understand the why behind the what. Like why is the curriculum designed this way? Um, what will enable you? To be successful in the classroom, delivering the curriculum. I mean, the curricula are basically, um, packaged activities that are based in grounded in the learning science. Many of our educators, um, don't have the same background. They don't all bring the same background to the classroom.

Uh, so anytime you're trying to learn a new system or process like that, it can be overwhelming. I think about. When I bought my first electric car, I had to rewire my brain to use it properly. So it can be especially difficult for seasoned educators because we're asking them to change their practice and they might be, you know, resistant to that change.

They don't understand the [00:09:00] change. I mean, one district leader. Who was implementing our literacy program, um, and having to put in the new Science of Reading practices told me she had to help her teachers go through a grieving process. Like Right. I mean, I was doing it wrong. 

Jeremy Singer: Right, right. 

Sari Factor: All these years 

Jeremy Singer: so it's a cha it's a real change management. It's sort of trying to get the teachers and the leaders to understand the why behind the program. Uh, and as you point out at times that could be different from. How they've been always going about their business. So, that's hard. Um, I assume it's a matter of devoting enough time.

Uh, you know, and what about, you know, I've heard, uh, programs and, I don't think your program necessarily like this, but where there's a, degree of concern around academic freedom. Like the teachers don't wanna have too much prescription. 

Sari Factor: Yeah, that certainly is the case at times.

Um, you know, again, this goes back to leadership and having strong vision and alignment all up and down a system. So from a [00:10:00] superintendent or associate superintendent for curriculum, I. To building leadership because the building leadership there's like an instructional coaching staff are the ones that really help support the educators in the practice.

Um, but there has been resistance and you will find that all over. I mean, I think the decade that proceeded this one was, uh, a period of particular, um, kind of DIY curriculum development. As every teacher then had access to the internet and Pinterest and teachers pay teachers, and that really drove, I think some of the problems we're seeing now in student achievement and proficiency because there was incoherence of curriculum.

You might meet all the standards, you might not, this classroom might, this classroom might not. And as students progress from grade three to four to five. They get a different experience as opposed to something that is coherent, especially in a subject like mathematics that builds on you know, one topic builds on the next.

Jeremy Singer: Yeah. And so, I mean, if [00:11:00] you were saying where Imagine learning has had less success. Is it, safe to say the main reason is there isn't the level of, uh, buy-in and understanding across the board is that, you know, the biggest cause of Yes, I would agree with that . Okay.

And then let me ask you, 'cause, uh, you know, many people, including myself, see at times that a lot of things in education act like a pendulum, right? Mm-hmm. And we go to one extreme and then it goes to the other. And then, and so, um. You know, we could argue that with all the tools, the DIY tools that were available to teachers, there's a real, um, growth with the internet.

And so , that may have led a lot more teachers to all design , um, their own programs and great teachers are able to do that. But you know, teachers have so much on their plate. It's a very, it's almost an impossible job. Um. So is your sort of thesis that hopefully the pendulum is coming back to acknowledge like, Hey, teachers can't do everything and they're acknowledging, hey, there are these very in-depth research developed programs and you're seeing more of that in the market.

Accepted to that. Yeah. I, 

Sari Factor: I think that that is definitely [00:12:00] happening in the market today. Um, and I think that district leaders also have to consider each teacher as an individual. You know, we talk about personalizing learning, right, right. Students, I think we have to do the same for teachers because, you know, you should know when this teacher, who's a very experienced teacher who's been on track and, you know, we've watched her classroom and she can handle making changes to the curriculum.

Others, newer teachers, emergency certified teachers. We have a lot of teachers that are emergency credentialed and so on because of the huge shortage we've had over the last decade, they may not have the experience. Right. I, you know, I was talking with a, a bunch of educators earlier this week about mathematics, and you know, the truth is, in elementary school, many of the teachers don't understand the math content.

Well enough, they've had maybe one math , methods course if any. Right. You know, went through emergency certification. They're like very under prepared to deliver the [00:13:00] kind of instruction we're needing our kids to have. 

Jeremy Singer: I had never thought of that parallel. Um, I really like it.

But you know, the idea that, um, just like individual student learners, um, there's a level of individualization you need to do to sort of meet them where they are. And in the same  uh, the thesis is, you know with teachers, it's also equally important to understand that there's different levels of experience.

A little bit of duh. That I'm not, yeah. That I'm not realizing. But I guess a question, uh, is, it's hard, we know it's very hard for teachers to do that level. Like they already are managing a large classroom and to try to individualize instruction. Sounds good. Very hard to pull off. What are good instructional leaders at the district level to school level?

Like how do they pull the levers for the students? So how does that work with your program? Like what levels of flexibility to give to the experience teacher who they clearly see as making progress, and what are the extra, uh, uh, supports and, and frameworks that they provide to the new teacher or the, you know, emergency, uh, certified teacher?

Sari Factor: One. One of the [00:14:00] things I think about is kind of the first year of an implementation of a new curriculum versus subsequent years, right? The first year. Often what I see the district leaders saying is, look, do your best to follow the curriculum to the letter I. 

Jeremy Singer: Yep. 

Sari Factor: And then you will, as you learn the curriculum, you'll get more comfortable with it and you'll know where you can modify or what, you know, modifications make the most sense for this group of students or that group of students.

And you know, we're doing the same thing to our curriculum all the time. I mean, our heritage as a digital company, digital first curriculum provider. Means we are always looking at improving the curriculum year in, year out, as opposed to, you know, when I was in the textbook world where you would publish something and it would be the same thing for the next 10 years until the district decided to buy something new.

This is a, you know, we think about it as a living curriculum, so. It's changing and evolving based upon where we see teachers have difficulty and where [00:15:00] we think things could be much more straightforward. Right. Um, which then makes it easier for the teachers to use it, but they customize. I mean, the best building leaders and instructional coaches are talking with the teachers about.

Their own buy-in. Right. What practice would you like to really focus on this week? Is there an instructional practice and getting their buy-in to try it? You know, try something new, try this instructional approach, and then let's talk about it. You know, professional learning communities have come a long way as a technique for getting teachers, all the third grade teachers who are teaching the same lessons in math, the unpacked lessons together and share expertise.

Right. So you might have more experienced teachers guiding the newer teachers, the more novice teachers in the building, which has been very effective. 

Jeremy Singer: So I'm gonna do an optimistic scenario and then a more pessimistic scenario. So the optimistic scenario is one you've laid out, which is, uh, and you didn't quite say it this way, [00:16:00] but I think your argument would be.

The rigor of which, uh, curricular programs, the development of the programs has improved over time. Like, we're getting better and better organizations are developing better research programs, curriculum programs that are based on actual, you know, situations and can mold to different environments and all this stuff.

So, you know, 30 years ago the curriculum programs may have been. You know, less sophisticated, less advanced, less tailored. So that's the good news . And then we had a wave where people were moving away from those programs, uh, because of the DYI and other things. But now there may be more acceptance of the value of that within the profession.

And so we have better programs and there's a greater acceptance. So that's like, Hey, we're in a good place. The pessimistic scenario is. We've been doing this for a long time. You've been doing this for a long time, and, we've seen little gains, like a lot of the scores have been stagnant or falling, [00:17:00] and the gaps have grown in many cases.

And there are people now, we'll get to AI in a minute, but even of ai, there are people who say, Hey, we could do all great curriculum and so forth. That's not enough. Like more fundamentally the whole. K 12 system has to be rethought. How students learn the role of teachers, you know, what's your reaction to that?

Sari Factor: Well, actually I think it's a both and. We do need to change the structure of schools and rethink what is the purpose of schooling. I think some of the things we are teaching today are going to become irrelevant. As AI displaces and, you know, parts of the workforce, um, the way we are thinking about what we're teaching, um, has to be shrunk in some ways and broadened in other ways.

Right. Um, you know, thinking about the skills that students really need to be able to demonstrate, you know, resilience, communication skills. In ways that we haven't even begun to think about. 'cause we're communicating now, not only with humans, but [00:18:00] with machines too, right? How do we write a great prompt?

How do we teach kids to write a great prompt is a new skill that they haven't really had to think about. But it is critical thinking, right? And so I don't think we've made those skills. Visible in products and in programs and we haven't really helped tune the kids to thinking about developing their skills, their how I learn best skills.

Right. Um, some teachers are very good at that, but, it's not practiced generally, we think content knowledge 

Jeremy Singer: So you, you sort of identify two things if I listened Well, one is, uh, just what's being taught and we've seen some change, like computer science being taught in a lot of schools.

I think statistics are much more frequent in schools than it was 30 years ago. So there's some change, I think. The average school. You know, my view is depressingly. It hasn't changed fast enough. What's being taught, and why over time, not just now. So I wanna believe [00:19:00] there's a will to more radical change, but I think there's just such inertia.

But we could debate that. And the second thing you said, I don't disagree. I just. Uh, worry about the pace. The second piece is, you know, what is, uh, term durable skills, right? It's skills that aren't subject specific, but your ability to communicate, as you mentioned, your ability to problem solve, et cetera, et cetera, and more helping students understand the importance of those skills.

Can you teach those skills? Can you assess those skills and so forth? So those feel like two separate things. What you didn't hit on, which was interesting to me, was. How the teaching is happening. Mm-hmm. Like do we need more of a revolution in. You know, what the day looks like, what the teacher's role is. HI mean, this is a hard question for you in your role, but I'd love to hear how you think about that .

Sari Factor: Yeah. Well, I actually think the programs that we have are a bridge to that because they do require much more student-centered approaches, student inquiry [00:20:00] into real world problems in science and mathematics and so on. You know, once you. Possess the foundational skills, the academic knowledge, you can really start driving that.

I think where we're gonna see that kind of change, and we are seeing that kind of change the fastest is in high schools. High schools feel extremely irrelevant to me. Yeah. Um, especially as we, you know, frame this as. You know, pre-K to forever learning, right? You know, people often say pre-K through 16, pre-K through 20, you know, whatever it is.

But it's, it's really for a lifetime. And how do we equip students with the skills to bob and weave throughout their careers as we know they will have to. I worry right now that workforce readiness, that topic is so constrained to CTE and we're thinking about it through the today's. Yep. Lens of I need more welders or I, you know, I need, you know, people who are doing new skills like, you know, robotics and cybersecurity.

Yeah. We need those [00:21:00] professions Absolutely. But we also need kids to be able to move from one to another because we live in such a dynamic world. So, you know, there are new schools coming to be, I believe this school choice movement can unleash some of that innovation. But it's very difficult to, to get new schools up and running with a different approach.

You need a dynamic leader, and that doesn't scale well or easily. 

Jeremy Singer: Right, right, right. A hundred percent at college board, we feel the same way. That uh, there's a lack of, um, relevance, uh, with learners today. And that's, you know, if you're not interested or curious or engaged the game's over, right?

So like, we have to figure that. And I like what you're saying. I mean, what your curriculum does is try to attach it, the learning to things that will be like, hopefully of more interest and more relevant. So I think that's part of the puzzle. Um, and I like your view of, uh, you know, we need more models.

Um, so. [00:22:00] I get the way that your curriculum works. Uh,. Is the teacher role different are you asking teachers to engage with the students differently? Other than the topic areas, but like, what else is different from how a teacher would teach your curriculum versus another?

I mean, the 

Sari Factor: one of the things that is different is that the teachers are really expected to be more facilitators and modelers than delivering, you know, it's not the stand and deliver instruction. Yeah. It's facilitating classroom experiences where a lot of the learning happens between the kids. Uh, you know, among the kids and the kids sharing out how they solve the problem.

Um, you know, there's too often the theory that you've had one answer to a problem, you know, like, no. Yeah. There can be many answers or many ways to answer a problem. Um, and I think, you know, one of the challenges we face is this notion of, you know, the procedures to do math as an example versus.

You know, how did she solve it and how did this other [00:23:00] student solve it? And getting some rich discussion going about why it worked in both of those ways. 

Jeremy Singer: Um,  That's great. let me shift gears a little bit. Uh, one thing that I think the two of us also, uh, uh, see completely eye to eye is, the importance of evidence, uh, on whether something's working or not.

And we talked a little bit about the Philadelphia. Example uh, for your curriculum. Um, but I, I think one thing that you do that, I really admire is, um, you know, doing joint research, uh, with your users. Can you describe how that works and what the role is and how that's helped?

Sari Factor: Yeah. I mean, we do seek opportunities to work with districts to do efficacy studies. Um, you know, we wanna know what they're interested in learning. About what's working, what's not. Um,  and we want that direct feedback for, you know, when things aren't working, how can we improve it. So it goes back into our product development.

Um, I mean, we've worked with countless districts. Uh,  you can read all the evidence reports on our, um, website 

Jeremy Singer: and we'll link to them. Yes. 

Sari Factor: Yeah. It's [00:24:00] really interesting to see, I mean one of our products, our Edgenuity courseware product, which is for student self-directed learning, um, and virtual schools can be used for credit recovery, unit recovery, um, and.

I'm amazed at the different ways the districts have implemented it. So we always start with what problem are they trying to solve with any of our solutions? What is their hypothesis and you know, how can we support them as they look at that research? So we, jointly engage around research topics that are important to us and important to districts.

Jeremy Singer: No, that's great. And how do you you know, the model's fantastic. You're working with the district , you're seeing what their results are. If it's not what everyone hoped, you're learning from that and saying, how do we change our approach? And because it's digital it's much easier and more adaptable, and you're constantly ideally improving, how much is success from district to district or school to school?

[00:25:00] The factors of the school that's the challenge is this situation may work here, but then do you change your program overall or not? 

Sari Factor: Yeah, I mean, this is a constant, question we ask ourselves, right? Because no two school environments are identical. Um, it's back to the top messy, right?

People are messy. Um, districts are a reflection of district leaderships. Buildings are a reflection. You can walk into a building and you know, right away if there's a strong leader in place and what that leader believes in versus if there's not. Right.  um, it is a matter of, you know, can we help move the needle in as many situations as possible?

Um, you know, I, can't say that we've ever. Walked away from an opportunity because we thought that chances of success were not good. But I would love to be able to say that , right? Yeah. This is probably not the right program for you because it will require your teachers to change tremendously. I don't think we've ever said that.

Most businesses haven't, but it is probably a reality. 

Jeremy Singer: Yeah, [00:26:00] I wanna go back to the teacher role conversation with Edgenuity, point is there's this self-directed learning.

Um there are other examples where. Um, they're purely self-directed where the student's on their own and they're, learning and there's more and more models now where the student is learning the core content through self-directed or on their own.

And then it really does change the teacher role. And, you know, the flipped classroom is not a new concept that was around 30 years ago where the. Teacher is sort of going through problems explaining, but I'm seeing even more radical things where the teacher's less about learning and more about motivation and, things.

How do you see all that happening and, and are you seeing that in your programs or in the schools you serve? I. 

Sari Factor: We do, and I actually think, and I'll bring AI into this because I think there are things that AI can do for teachers to take some of the burden away. Some of the, you know, the very.[00:27:00] 

Time consuming work, the teachers do. One example, and we've done this in our edX product, is that we do the first round grading of short writing. That was the first AI Yeah. Application we put in, and teachers have given us great feedback to it. Now that short writing review is for the teacher, not for the student.

Right. I'll make that very, very clear. Right, we want the teacher in control. We want the teacher to say. Either A, that's what I would've said. Push the button and say, go B, I don't like any of that. I'm gonna rewrite it. Or C you know, I know this kid and I've seen her writing before and I wanna make this particular point about this particular assignment.

and we've seen all three. All three. As humans, we always take the easy path. So, Um, um, more of them are saying, oh, I like what the computer wrote than anything. Right. , Um, you know, but I think if we can take some of the burden of time and give teachers more time to [00:28:00] create those meaningful relationships, really know the students, ensure that they're inspiring them and motivating them, that's a win.

That's a real win. 

Jeremy Singer: Yeah. I mean, you gave an example, there's a myriad of examples Within AI already we're seeing in a lot of schools using it for classroom management things and so forth. So a lot of tasks that were, um, fairly time consuming for teachers gets freed up.

And so the idea is just to give, I mean, is it really then it's allows them, you say, you know, to get closer to their students and better understand students. Is it really to drive more individualized instruction? 

Sari Factor: That could be one, that could be one outcome. 

Jeremy Singer: Yep. 

Sari Factor: Um, and we have solicited from teachers what they think the most valuable things that they do, and the things that, you know, they would love to have the computer do for them. You know, letters to families, letters to parents. Yeah. You know, it's natural language, so it's perfect for a GPT kind of application And so, you know, we are drafting those things where, again, we draft them, we take the data in from [00:29:00] the student performance, populate it, you know, write the summaries as we all do with AI now. Yep, yep. The teacher can choose to send it mass or individually. It's great. But yes, you know, if you think about the number one thing that teachers do, we all remember that one teacher that really resonated with us and first turned us onto learning.

Those of us who spent a lifetime in careers like this, who had somebody who really lit a fire for us, um. It wasn't because of what she taught us. We can't even remember what she taught us. It was about her. Yeah. And it was about the relationship 

Jeremy Singer: Who was your teacher? 

Sari Factor: Um, I had a great teacher in third grade and she was very musically inclined.

She put a lot of stuff to music and Ms. Bradley was phenomenal  uh, and, and, I was in a new school and she welcomed me with open arms and played her guitar and I was hooked. That's awesome. Yeah, I was hooked. 

Jeremy Singer: Yeah Tom Cataldo was my, uh. First and second grade teacher. And it was a, diverse school and uh, he [00:30:00] just was phenomenal inspiring.

He taught us all how to play chess in first grade and we'd go in early to build a kiln. Like things probably you can't do in schools today. But, uh, we did it back then. Um, so back to ai 'cause I'm glad we started to get into it . So, um, you're clearly building some tools to help, uh, scaffold and support teachers, which is great.

Um. You also pointed out earlier this, uh, importance of. You know, now that AI's available, what you need to be able to do is different for a learner, for a student, or for navigating society in general. Uh, just like, before we had gps, you had to read a map and no directions, and you, you, you can get by with, uh.

Uh, much more directionally challenged. Uh, maybe that's a terrible analogy. But anyway. Have you started to think, uh, in your curriculum about some of those skills and how are you thinking about building it into the Imagine Learning? Uh, Uh, we, we 

Sari Factor: have and, and, um, we're not actually working on that with AI yet, but we are thinking about how we make visible those durable skills and the durable [00:31:00] skills acquisition. It's a progression, it's a learning progression like any other learning progression. Um, you know, we partnered with an organization, batel for Kids that has now been acquired into a A SA that has portrait of a graduate.

But this concept, portrait of a graduate, portrait of a learner. Uh, learning profiles that we see in about 22 states now has really taken hold. You know, asking in a community-based way, asking your community what you want kids who are graduates of our high schools. To be able to do and know. 

Jeremy Singer: Um, 

Sari Factor: Uh, and again, 

Jeremy Singer: those are things like problem solving, communication, uh, uh, working groups.

yeah. But also 

Sari Factor: self-regulation and resilience, grit. Some people call it grit, you know? Yeah. So we are kind of looking at that movement these are difficult things to implement. They're kind of amorphous ideas to implement, and what we see is the districts and states who have implemented them, there's real lack of fidelity [00:32:00] across the states or districts that have done it because there's nothing to tie it to.

So we think that tying it into curriculum could be a real lever. And so I've been writing about that and talking. We've been doing some research. Uh, jointly with Batel for kids around that as to what would move the needle for districts or states that are trying to implement in a curriculum product.

Jeremy Singer: Uh, it's already making some progress, even, you know, the posters and the six things about these durable skills, like even just naming them and making the teachers and the students aware that these are important things for success. Like that's a good step in its own, obviously, you want them to then say, okay, how do I improve on these things?

How do I learn about myself so I know you know, type of learner I'm and so forth. So I think you're already making progress. From our standpoint of College Board, we're very hard to assess those things. Correct. Um, and, , we're obviously with many others trying to figure out that part of it.

But I think. It's [00:33:00] already a win, just the 22 states that are already using these, that they're up on the walls that they're talking about. It's in a conversation, um, that this generation of students are gonna be more aware of these than past generations. So we've talked a lot about Imagine Learning, uh, as I mentioned the opening.

You've had a really successful career, uh, before Imagine Kaplan, McGraw, hill, Mifflin, everyday Learning. You've had a lot. And know, the goal of this whole podcast is to. Sort of, uh, surface things that really work. Um, again, the challenge being so many things in education and you pointed this out earlier, work because of an individual or because of certain circumstance, but are almost impossible to scale or replicate.

And so looking back earlier in your career, what would be one or two things you'd say, Hey, super proud of a program that, you know, had an impact, that had research and data to support success. 

Sari Factor: Um, you know, I look back at my time at McGraw Hill was a time of big growth for me. I was in one part of the [00:34:00] organization.

They asked me to come and lead a different part of the organization. And, um, this group was, uh, I would say particularly down trodden. There was another part of the organization that was given the funding and was really riding high at the time. And it was almost like a, a turnaround inside the company.

Yeah. 

Jeremy Singer: What'd you do to get that? Just kidding. I 

Sari Factor: always, yeah, I mean, these are the things that turn me on the turnaround and fast growth kind of situations. And, um, I've gotta say, you know, we set to work on a new reading program and there were high expectations for it. So this is, you know, kind of a, I didn't know what I was getting myself into in a way.

Um, there were really high expectations on a new reading program. And I had to go to management Terry McGraw and the CFO, and said, we're not ready. We're not gonna be able to launch. We are not getting the right feedback. I don't feel right about this. Um, we're gonna need another year. You know, like here this fip, you know, kind of them and says, Nope, can't, we can't do it.

Um, it 

Jeremy Singer: was probably [00:35:00] Bob Ash was there at the time. Exactly. Okay. Yeah, yeah, exactly. 

Sari Factor: Uh, I wouldn't 

Jeremy Singer: wanna be in your shoes. Uh, 

Sari Factor: yeah. So, you know, I said to them, look, there's no way we can be ready and have a successful program, so let me finish this in the right way. And they did. And I will tell you that the company still, how many years later years later, is still reaping benefits from that decision.

Wow. 'cause the basis of the reading program that we then launched, that became number one in the market, has had a run of 20 years. But it took courage. This is the challenge, right? Is when as a leader, do you feel like. You can step out and say this is a bad decision, this is a wrong decision.

I've gotta change tack. I'm looking at what's happening in the market. I'm not getting the right signals about this product. You know, I haven't always done that. Um, there's one other time I should have done it and didn't do it. 

Jeremy Singer: Yeah. 

Sari Factor: Um. But you know, you gotta have courage. 

Jeremy Singer: No, that's great. And you clearly must have credibility [00:36:00] 'cause those figures were not easy to, you know, push a program back a year.

I'm sure there were, uh, financial projections and so forth. So, um it shows how you were seen, uh, in your credibility. Alright, so I'm gonna ask, uh, each guest a set of rapid fire questions to get to know you a little better. So we're testing these out here. Great. Uh, okay. So there's just four.

It's gonna be quick. Uh, don't overthink these. Uh, so first is, uh, what's one education buzzword you wish we could retire? 

Sari Factor: Uh, 

Jeremy Singer: EdTech. I. Yes. 

Sari Factor: EdTech is too much about the tech and not enough about the ed. 

Jeremy Singer: Yeah. And it's so broad. I can't, uh, it's a good one. Uh, your favorite book about education or one that deeply shaped your thinking?

It doesn't even have to be an education book, but something that, uh, you know, that helped you, uh, gain a perspective on education. 

Sari Factor: I'd have to say Disrupting class by Clayton Christensen and Michael B. Horn.

Jeremy Singer: I really love that you mentioned Disrupting Class by Clay Christensen. I bet a lot of listeners are well aware of that book. Maybe also say it's one of their favorites. [00:37:00] Clay's original claim to fame probably is most known book is Innovator's Dilemma, which described how even well run successful companies fail to adapt to disruptive innovation.

What probably our listeners don't realize is 20 years ago when we were at McGraw Hill, they had an educational publishing division and they published Clay's book disrupting class, which was How do you apply Innovator's Dilemma to education? I was relatively, new to McGraw Hill. I had been part of a startup that they acquired and frankly, was still a bit of a shit stir.

And, uh, clay came, we invited Clay to speak, to the top 30 or what have you, , people at McGraw Hill Education right as the book was being published. And we wanted to learn. Why is it so hard for leading education companies to adapt to the internet, to digital learning, et cetera, et cetera. And so toward the end, I think you'll remember I raised my hand and I asked Clay, what percent he gave us McGraw Hill of successfully adapting and succeeding.[00:38:00] 

And when he replied, zero, I can still see some of the scowls I got from my colleagues. So, great book. Uncomfortable memory. 

Alright. Uh. Name one thing that makes you bullish, uh, for future learners. And we've talked about a bunch, but like, what's one thing that makes you sort of optimistic about the future?

Sari Factor: Um, I like this portrait of a learner. Portrait of a graduate idea. I think it is. I think it's where we need to be going. 

Jeremy Singer: And last, uh, one class that you wish all high school students had to take. Study skills? 

Sari Factor: No. Does that sound horribly boring? Yeah, that does 

Jeremy Singer: sound bad. 

Sari Factor: It sounds horribly boring, but, um, all my younger listeners are gonna, AI literacy might be the one right now, because boy, we really need a lot of work to do to understand what kids need to know about ai.

That's a big one now. 

Jeremy Singer: Yeah. And then we're all still figuring it out. Um, so I wanna end uh, where we started, uh, improving educational outcomes. Uh, I really, uh, thought the Forbes piece, uh, in response to the NAEP results that you [00:39:00] wrote was great. Um, so let's imagine you and I are talking, you know, three, five years from now reflecting on a positive change.

Uh, you know, what would you be most proud of or encouraged by in this kind of, um, future scenario? So

Sari Factor: how I'd like it to change or, yeah, yeah. 

Jeremy Singer: How let, let's be optimistic here. I mean, you've been generally optimistic. I think. I feel like I'm the pessimist on this discussion today. Alright, so here's 

Sari Factor: what I would say.

I think coming out of the pandemic, you know, it's kind of, there's a downside and upside to everything. Parents are engaged. Now we all know that different parents are engaged in different ways, but I am hopeful that parents will be engaged for good. It is a great new book out, uh, right now called the Disengaged Teen.

If you haven't read it, I highly recommend it by Rebecca Winthrop and Jenny Anderson. Um, talking about what every one of us can do as a parent to improve their students' learning 'cause everyone can. Um, I'm hopeful that school choice drives real innovation. [00:40:00] There are positive experiments. We're not just, you know, doing the Yep, yep.

Same old, same old. Um, I am hopeful that AI enables us to free up teachers to focus on meaningful relationships with learners, and that then they can be more creative. I think we think about AI as an efficiency play primarily, and I think we gotta get beyond that into broader, you know, um, uses of AI too.

To bring out the creativity in teachers. I want them to feel more successful and fulfilled, which I hope will decrease teacher turnover. They'll stay in the profession longer because the longer they stay in the profession, generally, the better it is for kids . Um, and I hope that AI enables us to get beyond what I still consider NCLB style assessments.

We are still, you know, because of the costs of grading assessments. We've still boiled it down to a lot of stuff that isn't really meaningful to what a kid's life, what they'll need to [00:41:00] be able to do throughout their lives. So that we have ways to evaluate student growth and durable skills.

Jeremy Singer: That is great. That is great list of aspirations that I hope we are discuss discussing. That's not gonna happen in three years, but we can, we'll see, we'll see. , Let's think big. Um. So thank you so much for joining today. I really appreciate your time. Um, and good luck to all you, your ventures.

Sari Factor: All right. Thank you so much, Jeremy. Great. Good to you.